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AIBU?

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Original poster

Have I done a wicked thing??

83 replies

TheHomelands2020 · 03/11/2020 14:47

I'm self-employed and worked for a man as admin support for two years. It suited me, and wasn't my only job so was rightly self-employed. The man wasn't my cup of tea but we rocked along OK. I provided a good service, I'm a fast worker so he got his money's worth and paid me on time. All good. I'm not giving away details as it's outing, but it was all very above board and normal.

Cutting a long story short, he did some dishonest dealings and treated me pretty badly at the end. My position was untenable so I resigned. I was pretty cut up about it, very hurt and very angry. He is a pretty nasty individual and I've since found out he has fallen out with most of the people he's ever worked with.

During the course of working for him I created templates and documents for him. He had never asked for copies of the templates. They were created on my software. He now wants the originals and I've refused to give them to him. Does anyone know where I stand with company data.

Also, one of his customers has contacted me because he's unhappy with his charging. I've given away some information that means he could lose this client.

What's the worst that could happen?

OP posts:
Original poster
TheHomelands2020 · 03/11/2020 14:50

I have never signed a contract with him so there is no competition clause to worry about.

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 03/11/2020 14:51

You've done enough OP. Send him the templates and walk away.

contrmary · 03/11/2020 14:54

If you created the templates and documents in the course of your work then they belong to him. Just say you deleted everything relating to your work once you left the job.

On the second point it is hard to say without knowing what information you have given away and what your contract said about confidentiality after leaving. If you said something like "you can get it cheaper from xyz" you'll be fine.

FatBottomedGurl · 03/11/2020 14:56

If you haven't signed a contract, he has nowhere to go with his demands. Its really that simple.

Should you give him them? Well, yes. Because the templates were created whilst he was paying you to do so, so he has paid you for them already.

As to whether you actually do give him them? I wouldn't. I would ignore all future communications. I'm petty, and I'm ok with it.

Original poster
TheHomelands2020 · 03/11/2020 14:59

We didn't have a contract. It sounds utterly crazy now, but when it worked, it worked. I'm glad to be away from him now so I'm not worried about losing the work, I'll find others.

I have said I've deleted everything but I'm a bit worried now that I can be fined or worse for this.

The client asked me about how he priced his work, they were already very suspicious and I just confirmed their concerns.

OP posts:
MustardMitt · 03/11/2020 15:00

I really don’t think he has a leg to stand on regarding templates you created to make your job easier but that aren’t an actual owned by him system.

Having said that, I would post on Reddit (or the legal boards here although not sure how busy they are) for more advice. You want r/Legaladviceuk on Reddit

Strike000 · 03/11/2020 15:03

Providing that you actually sent him the templates at the time you created them, I would ignore him.

Surely that’s like if you get a photographer to take some photos of you, you pay them and they send you the photos. Then a year later you ask them for another copy and they’ve deleted them. 🤷‍♀️

JustCallMeGriffin · 03/11/2020 15:07

Without a contract or emails confirming he asked you to create specific templates for his future use during your employment he'd be hard pressed to prove he has a legal right to them.

We outsource work to creative industries frequently and always have to pay more for the source files/templates because the companies know that means no repeat business to make amendments etc so contracts for templates are very carefully drawn up.

As to the sharing of information with one of his clients...that could land you in hot water if any of the information was formally classified as business confidential. If he can prove you're the reason he's lost money he might be able to pursue you for losses.

Personally I'd keep my head down and keep quiet about the client thing, as to the templates it'd depend on how confident I was that it could be proved I created them for the express purpose of that business and their future continued use of them...but if I could get away with saying they were on company servers and no longer exist on your machine then I would.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/11/2020 15:14

The templates, as in open, useable templates are yours. The documents created for him, his business, using those templates are his. Had he had the software and given the templates, or means to create templates, to you then they would be his and you would have lost access to them when you quit.

That's why such things are created in all sorts of software and sent out as pdfs.

I think some posters are missing the fact that you are self employed, an independent PA, a VA, not his direct employee. So when he hired you he hired use of your expertise and software etc. He doesn't own it in the same way as he would if he employed you and proivided you with all equipment.

As long as he has a copy of all the documents made for his business he has all he paid for!

senua · 03/11/2020 15:15

Ignore him, greyrock. If he wants the templates he can go down the legal route.
Spoiler: he won't.

Zilla1 · 03/11/2020 15:24

It ma depend on your jurisdiction, OP.

In general, if he paid you to create the templates and you were an employee then most contracts of employment would involve the employer controlling the IPR/copyright in created goods. But you don't have a contract and you talk about self employment. For him to do more than ask would depend on the jurisdiction and your employment status.

Regarding the arguable breach of confidentiality. That seems stickier ground. I would avoid discussing it and, in future, don't do this again if you don't want trouble.

Good luck.

jessstan1 · 03/11/2020 15:28

Just walk away from it now. Definitely don't talk to any more of his clients.

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 15:31

It depends but I think this comes under IP - and you get this a lot with graphic design for example. Say you do a brochure for a company - unless specifically agreed, the brochure (finished item) is theirs. The assets you used to create it are yours. Law is on your side in this case, so if you’re something similar, or let’s say social media templates - they’re yours.

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 15:32

Also - do you have professional indemnity insurance. Would always recommend getting this it’s quite cheap.

LindaEllen · 03/11/2020 15:35

If they legally belonged to him, then he should have asked for copies at the time and saved them. Surely he has the completed docs you made for him along the way, that he could remove info from and save the templates?

He has access to them if he wants them, it sounds like he was a bit of a knob, you don't work for him anymore, you didn't sign a contract .. cut ties and don't look back. Block his email address and number if you're concerned about potential harassment in the future.

ShellsAndSunrises · 03/11/2020 15:41

As to the sharing of information with one of his clients...that could land you in hot water if any of the information was formally classified as business confidential. If he can prove you're the reason he's lost money he might be able to pursue you for losses.

This. I’d be more concerned about this than the templates.

TheCrowsHaveEyes · 03/11/2020 15:43

Depending on the emails or communication between you at the time of creation and depending on what jurisdiction you are in, he could in theory pursue you through the small claims court for the costs of having to have the templates retro-created. I doubt he will.

I understand why you're annoyed but as a freelancer, all you have is your reputation, your work and your integrity. People tend to talk and gossip. Keeping hold of templates that he specifically asked you to create, doesn't reflect well on you. I know someone who did the same in my field and it definitely impacted their reputation and ability to source other contracts in that area.

donquixotedelamancha · 03/11/2020 15:44

If you created the templates and documents in the course of your work then they belong to him.

That would only be true if OP was employed. I can't see any way that OP's company work product, created on his computer and never given to the client can form part of the clients property.

Definitely don't talk to any more of his clients.

Depends whether OP wan't to work for them instead. Don't say anything to them in writing which isn't entirely factual or stuff you know directly from working for this bloke.

Jroseforever · 03/11/2020 15:54

So... this nasty thing he did.
Was it illegal?

The templates, presumably branded with his company? Done for him.

I reckon they belong to him

LilyLongJohn · 03/11/2020 15:54

If you've just signed a contract then you've got nothing to worry about except your reputation. Creating the templates to allow you to do your job is fine, he got what he wanted at the time. If he wants the templates then I'd charge him for it.

As for confidential info, then it all depends what it is, if you're giving away trade secrets it might be a bit sticky, if you just either agreed or disagrees with the clients opinions then not so much

BrightYellowDaffodil · 03/11/2020 15:55

As far as I can see, he could, in theory, claim that the templates were created as part of your paid employment and the intellectual property belongs to him. But how is he going to prove that he employed you without a contract? It's illegal to work without a contract, AFAIK, so he'd be on a sticky wicket if he wanted to go to court.

As for the talking to another client, if you no longer work for this man and what you said was your honest opinion ("You can go to company X and they will be cheaper") then I wouldn't see a problem. If you've let on company secrets then that might be an issue but again, without a formal contract of employment, how is he going to say that you were bound by confidentiality? If you're really worried, some solicitors give a free half hour's advice.

Jroseforever · 03/11/2020 15:58

If no contract, were you paid cash in hand?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/11/2020 16:00

The templates, presumably branded with his company? Done for him.

I reckon they belong to him

Usually VAs have their own software, their own ways of working. They will personalise them for your output and usually send them in locked pdf format. But the software and the ways they use them are their own work. The OUTPUT belongs to the client.

Bluebell878275 · 03/11/2020 16:02

I dunno, I don't think anything good comes out of lying (even if the bloke 'deserves' it). As a PP has said, just send them to him and walk away.

TheCrowsHaveEyes · 03/11/2020 16:06

Honestly there are so many posters giving advice who obviously haven't been freelance. OP was unprofessional not to have a contract but that doesn't mean that there aren't any emails or messages concerning the detail of what they were producing. They may have been commissioned to provide the final document. They may have been commissioned to produce the template and provide the final document. Both options are just as likely.
Regardless, gaining a reputation for being untrustworthy with confidential information and stealing clients, isn't a good way to build a business.

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