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AIBU?

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Original poster

Have I done a wicked thing??

83 replies

TheHomelands2020 · 03/11/2020 14:47

I'm self-employed and worked for a man as admin support for two years. It suited me, and wasn't my only job so was rightly self-employed. The man wasn't my cup of tea but we rocked along OK. I provided a good service, I'm a fast worker so he got his money's worth and paid me on time. All good. I'm not giving away details as it's outing, but it was all very above board and normal.

Cutting a long story short, he did some dishonest dealings and treated me pretty badly at the end. My position was untenable so I resigned. I was pretty cut up about it, very hurt and very angry. He is a pretty nasty individual and I've since found out he has fallen out with most of the people he's ever worked with.

During the course of working for him I created templates and documents for him. He had never asked for copies of the templates. They were created on my software. He now wants the originals and I've refused to give them to him. Does anyone know where I stand with company data.

Also, one of his customers has contacted me because he's unhappy with his charging. I've given away some information that means he could lose this client.

What's the worst that could happen?

OP posts:
somelemons · 03/11/2020 16:42

Have you also used that design of document template elsewhere for other clients? If so, then they are your original work and the copyright is yours. Otherwise, they are unique to his business and you created the layout when you were working for him, so they belong to him.

The other matter - well. You have breached confidentiality and he could take you to court for it. Although he is unlikely to do that if what you revealed were dodgy dealings on his part.

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 16:43

@Jroseforever well Op knows this - the short answer is no. Last time you got in a taxi did you sign a contract?
It’s of course wise To have one.

Jroseforever · 03/11/2020 16:48

Odd

Original poster
TheHomelands2020 · 03/11/2020 16:49

I wasn't paid cash in hand, I was paid and I have declared this on my tax return and will again on future tax returns.

Thanks for all your advice. I will not speak to the client again and avoid his calls.

My reason for not JUST giving the templates away, is that he's a vicious bully and I don't want to reward that behaviour. He's done this before and got away with it, this time around it's not so easy for him.

OP posts:
Sonders · 03/11/2020 16:50

The best analogy I've found for it is treating it like a restaurant.

If you're self employed, it's like you are a chef, and your client is the diner. They're buying the meal - not the list of ingredients and the recipe.

If you're employed, it's like you're the chef and the employer is the restauranteur - of course they'd own the recipes you developed whilst working for them.

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 16:53

@Sonders that’s far better than my plumber one Grin

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/11/2020 16:57

I'll take that one too @Sonders Grin

Marshyellow · 03/11/2020 16:58

I don't think it's really socking it to him not to send some templates you created whilst he was paying you on work time, I would send them and then block him personally, there's then nought outstanding he has reason to go on about. Depending on the info you shared, doing so with commercially sensitive info can be illegal, I doubt it would actually amount to anything but I wouldn't say anything to anyone else and keep a shred of professionalism.

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 16:58

@TheHomelands2020 good for you.

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 17:00

@Marshyellow if he’d paid the largest design agency in the world a million quid they still wouldn’t give him the templates unless agreed. Therefore to some degree it’s more “professional” not to do so.

Eddielzzard · 03/11/2020 17:21

Don't give him the templates then, but I wouldn't avoid the client's calls. I'd speak to them and say you can't get involved, sorry. Then at least they know. I hate it when people leave you hanging.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/11/2020 17:25

I will not speak to the client again and avoid his calls. Don't avoid him. Give him some reason to leave you alone. A simple "I am sorry, I no longer work for X. My association with him ended on [date]. I cannot help you"

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 17:32

If he’s already asking these questions and this wasn’t you volunteering info - it sounds like that client was on their way out anyway.

ChocolateCherrybomb · 03/11/2020 17:34

I sew. I have, from scratch, created patterns for tee shirts. These are my templates.

Carol says, "I like your pink tee shirt, make me one exactly the same but in blue and I will pay you £20".

Carol cannot, upon being presented with the finished tee in exchange for cash, say it's just right for her before demanding that I hand over the paper pattern so she can make more from my pattern. It was mine before she came along and still is. Why the hell would I present her with the means to recreate my design in her own time for free.

If Carol said, "I like your tee shirt. I want to hire you for a week to create a pattern that fits me perfectly and make me a tee from it".

Carol is then paying me while I make the pattern as a "work for hire". She would own the pattern unless a prior contract stipulated she would not.

This is my understanding and think it still applicable if OP uses her own document templates created outside her work hours for nasty client using her own software and equipment.

Bubbles90 · 03/11/2020 17:47

As you have no signed contract signing him the legal rights to your work, including your templates, you don't have to give them to him. He has no legal right to them. They are your intellectual property. You didn't sign your IP over to him and just because you created them for him doesn't mean they belong to him. The data the templates contain however is another matter, that is his property. Make sure you delete all of his data in the templates.

TheCrowsHaveEyes · 03/11/2020 17:53

Am I the only one bemused by posters sharing their experiences and their contracts as though they're somehow relevant? Confused Companies can and do commission freelancers to create bespoke templates. They pay them for the template as one item of work and then pay for the templates to be populated.

Some companies pay for the finished item and the designer retains the IP for the templates.

Regardless of other posters' contracts, we don't know what conversations/correspondence exists between OP and her client. What we do know is that OP says she doesn't want to give him the templates because he's a bully, not that she doesn't want to give him them because he's not paid for them.

This shouldn't be angst-ridden or emotional. He either commissioned and paid for the templates or he didn't. Whether he's kind or mean, doesn't affect it.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 03/11/2020 17:55

You've got me wondering if I once worked for the same chap, OP, but the lack of a contract along with other dodgy practices and behaviour suggests you've got little to worry about even if he did want to make a case over the documents

"Mine" tried it once with a colleague over something similar, and with what came crawling out of the woodwork about him he wished he'd never bothered

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 18:02

@TheCrowsHaveEyes I’d say it’s clear in the OP - he never asked for the templates - she worked as a freelance admin. There was no contract. Therefore it’s the default - her IP.

So that is where emotion comes into it - if you’d left on good terms you may go “well while i legally don’t have to pass them on, I will”. But as he acted badly - op can emotionally say “fuck him in won’t”.

DuckbilledSplatterPuff · 03/11/2020 18:11

If he did threaten to come after you legally ( he has no contract on which to base this so its doubtful he could take it that far), you could probably counter by saying you have a case about the bullying behaviour which caused you to leave. It sounds like you'd have plenty of supporting witnesses from his other former employees.

Also, not that much of a deal to have the templates back. He has copies of the design so they would be really easy to recreate.
If its just Word or similar, he could just doctor an existing doc and use that surely. Sounds like he's just picking on something to do a bit more bullying and pay you back for leaving. or is just plain lazy

grassisjeweled · 03/11/2020 18:14

If would depend greatly on the content of the documents and their intended use.

If this fella is as shady as you insinuate, implicating yourself by sending him the templates could end very poorly for you.

That's what you have to consider.

Kcar · 03/11/2020 18:23

I’d be more worried about confirming what you did to the client. What exactly did you say?

OhDearMuriel · 03/11/2020 18:49

I think you should have just given them to him and walked away.
I hope what you said to his client won't come back to bite you on the bum. It was none of your business, it was spiteful and hopefully you won't be on his radar.

MintyMabel · 03/11/2020 18:58

If you created the templates and documents in the course of your work then they belong to him. Just say you deleted everything relating to your work once you left the job.

If she did it on software he didn’t provide, I’m not sure that would be the case.

Sandii · 03/11/2020 18:58

Revenge is never soul enriching ...don’t lower yourself. Just be glad you have extracted yourself and can move on.

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 19:17

I think you should have just given them to him and walked away.

Why should she have? She’s under no legal obligation to do so and he’s treated her badly.

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