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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Have I done a wicked thing??

83 replies

TheHomelands2020 · 03/11/2020 14:47

I'm self-employed and worked for a man as admin support for two years. It suited me, and wasn't my only job so was rightly self-employed. The man wasn't my cup of tea but we rocked along OK. I provided a good service, I'm a fast worker so he got his money's worth and paid me on time. All good. I'm not giving away details as it's outing, but it was all very above board and normal.

Cutting a long story short, he did some dishonest dealings and treated me pretty badly at the end. My position was untenable so I resigned. I was pretty cut up about it, very hurt and very angry. He is a pretty nasty individual and I've since found out he has fallen out with most of the people he's ever worked with.

During the course of working for him I created templates and documents for him. He had never asked for copies of the templates. They were created on my software. He now wants the originals and I've refused to give them to him. Does anyone know where I stand with company data.

Also, one of his customers has contacted me because he's unhappy with his charging. I've given away some information that means he could lose this client.

What's the worst that could happen?

OP posts:
Eddielzzard · 03/11/2020 16:08

You shouldn't have spoken to the client, refuse to get involved next time.

Re templates, hard to say without more info.

NetflixWatcher · 03/11/2020 16:10

Just say they are deleted and ignore him.

MoonJelly · 03/11/2020 16:10

We didn't have a contract.

You mean you didn't have a written contract. You did however have a contract under which, I assume, it was accepted that you had certain duties in terms of work for him whilst he had duties in terms of paying you. it doesn't have to be in writing to be valid.

That contract will have had a number of implied terms, including the fact that work you did whilst being paid by your employer belonged to him. If I were him I would be deeply sceptical that you had destroyed the templates. Other issues apart, it's hard to delete something completely off a computer. If he pursues this you should probably simply hand them over. You can't be fined, but you could be sued.

CustardySergeant · 03/11/2020 16:12

I'm not clear as to why you've refused to send him the templates.

MoonJelly · 03/11/2020 16:13

It's illegal to work without a contract, AFAIK

No, it isn't. And OP must have had at least an oral contract; she would presumably be quick enough to make a fuss if she wasn't paid at the agreed rate under that contract.

Thelittleweasel · 03/11/2020 16:15

@TheHomelands2020

I assume you are in the UK. I would strongly urge that you get some brief legal advice if for no other reason than to sort out your employment status. Just because you work for more than one person does not make you "self employed". Do you have confirmation of your employment status from H M Revenue and Customs? Did you submit invoices for your work?

You mention "not having a contract" but it is likely that you have a contract by conduct if you were there for two years

Crinkle77 · 03/11/2020 16:15

@CustardySergeant

I'm not clear as to why you've refused to send him the templates.
I agree. They're just templates, let him have them. I mean what are they exactly and can you use them for other businesses you may work for?
CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/11/2020 16:16

@CustardySergeant

I'm not clear as to why you've refused to send him the templates.
  1. He may not have the softeare to make any sense of them
  1. They are possibly her way of working, not his final document
  1. He has no legal right to them unless they had a contract that includes them.

I work with all sorts of documents and reports. No client gets the template, the blank into which I put their data. They only get the output, the job they paid for, in a locked format usually! That's what they are buying form me, my expertise, my access to software they don't have, my use of that software, software I pay for, for their business.

That's how many VAs and other information processing works!

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 16:19

OMG some people on here have no idea how self employment works or IP.

Here you go - source files unless specifically covered in a contract belong to you

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/323145/changes-to-designs-law.pdf

senua · 03/11/2020 16:20

I'm not clear as to why you've refused to send him the templates.
Did you not read the OP? Quote "Cutting a long story short, he did some dishonest dealings and treated me pretty badly at the end. My position was untenable so I resigned. I was pretty cut up about it, very hurt and very angry. He is a pretty nasty individual and I've since found out he has fallen out with most of the people he's ever worked with."
Why should OP #BeKind to a bully?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/11/2020 16:20

I'd just gone to find that very same link Smile

Sonders · 03/11/2020 16:23

OP there is some really bad advice here from PPs who mean well, but don't know the difference between assets created during employment or assets delivered as part of a business-to-business transaction.

Like others have said, you only need to deliver the templates if you have a contract that says so.

I have my own business and use templates I developed to service multiple clients (personalised with their brand) - what I charge for my services reflects this. Like heck I'd give the source files away - let alone for free.

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 16:24

@Crinkle77 “just templates” are what a lot of designers, accountants, etc build all their work on. If a plumber comes to your house you don’t get to keep their toolbox because you paid for your sink to be unblocked.

Jroseforever · 03/11/2020 16:25

To be fair

The OP herself is self employed

And SHE wasn’t aware of contractual law around self employment or intellectual property

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 16:28

@Jroseforever yes that’s why she asked for advice. If she’s not a designer this probably hasn’t come up for her before.

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 16:29

Sorry I didn’t mean to say everyone should know this - I meant to say that people are giving very stringent advice when they don’t actually have a clue. (A bit like every legal matter on MN I suppose).

Jroseforever · 03/11/2020 16:30

Around contractual law though is self employed?!

Suzi888 · 03/11/2020 16:30

Why would you not give them to him? Hmm isn’t it easier.

Jroseforever · 03/11/2020 16:31

@MLMbotsgoaway

Sorry I didn’t mean to say everyone should know this - I meant to say that people are giving very stringent advice when they don’t actually have a clue. (A bit like every legal matter on MN I suppose).
The Op has posted on mumsnet

In AIBU

I mean seriously. Not exactly center of legal expertise, and she must know that

MLMbotsgoaway · 03/11/2020 16:31

@Jroseforever I’m self employed - I’m not a contract law specialist. Assuming you’re employed - how’s your knowledge of employment law?

Jroseforever · 03/11/2020 16:32

Whether or not a contract is required?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/11/2020 16:32

@Suzi888

Why would you not give them to him? Hmm isn’t it easier.
The answer is up there Smile
Crinkle77 · 03/11/2020 16:33

[quote MLMbotsgoaway]@Crinkle77 “just templates” are what a lot of designers, accountants, etc build all their work on. If a plumber comes to your house you don’t get to keep their toolbox because you paid for your sink to be unblocked.[/quote]
That's why I asked what sort of templates they are. If they're just letter templates or something which she wouldn't use again in future as they are specific to that company then what's the problem?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/11/2020 16:33

[quote MLMbotsgoaway]@Crinkle77 “just templates” are what a lot of designers, accountants, etc build all their work on. If a plumber comes to your house you don’t get to keep their toolbox because you paid for your sink to be unblocked.[/quote]
Ooh! Nice analogy. I'll use that next time it comes up!

PTW1234 · 03/11/2020 16:38

When I was self employed, the standard line in all contracts was anything I created, documentation, templates etc where all the company who hired me property and they had all rights to it. E.g. I could be in trouble if I designed a database for them and copy and pasted that at another company