This has to stop, but I doubt it will.

[OverTheRainbow88]

“According to the figures, Black people in Bristol and Somerset were 6.4 times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people last year.

That's despite Black people being only slightly more likely to be arrested if they are stopped.
Of the Black people that were stopped in Avon and Somerset last year, 17% were then arrested - compared to 15% of white people.”

www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/black-people-bristol-somerset-64-4646894

It's well-documented that stop and search is a deeply racist protocol. Has been for years.

Yes, I studied a Module in criminology 12 years ago, the figure then was very similar; I thought by 2020 it would be marginally better!

That really is appalling!

It will probably get worse over time, I imagine.

@EmbarrassedUser

Of the Black people that were stopped in Avon and Somerset last year, 17% were then arrested - compared to 15% of white people.” And that’s with 6Xs more stops.

If I stop and search 200 people at random it’s more likely that more of them will be doing something wrong or have something on them than they shouldn’t than if I stopped and searched 33 people....!

The police stopped a man on my local Facebook page because they saw him running, no other reason as he videoed they whole thing and the only reason they gave was they saw him running. It was amazing how many people commented defending the police, all white people...

If you get stopped and have nothing, what’s the issue?

Of the Black people that were stopped in Avon and Somerset last year, 17% were then arrested - compared to 15% of white people.”

If that's true it suggests that the stops are not motivated by racism. If that were the cause you'd expect a far smaller proportion of black people to be arrested because they'd be mostly innocent.

Lots of things might be causing that- I highly doubt that black people in Somerset are 6 times more likely to be criminals. It would be interesting to see whether the arrests are borne out in charging. It would also be interesting to see where the arrests are happening and for what crime.

If you get stopped and have nothing, what’s the issue?

The issue is that racist behaviour from the police causes resentment and disaffection amongst targeted communities. If racism is the reason it terrible, whether it leads to charges or not.

The police is an inherently racist institution. That is a given - I'm only surprised the figure isn't higher. The police stop BAME individuals as a sporting event.

@Georgeoftheinternet

If you get stopped and have nothing, what’s the issue?

Would you be OK with being stopped by the police 6x more often than a white person?

@Georgeoftheinternet

If you get stopped and have nothing, what’s the issue?

Would you be pissed off if every time you went shopping, there was a far higher chance that the security guards stopped you at the door, wouldn't let you leave and the manager came over and made you empty your pockets, your handbag, your children's schoolbags and lunchboxes and you were quizzed as to your ID (no passport or driving licence in your bag, chances are you aren't getting home until 10pm), where you were going, who you were meeting, who you lived with and that they were going to search inside your bra and touch your thighs - because they believe that white women with kids are all shoplifters and even if you've never stolen anything in your life, because you're a white woman with kids, you should be understanding that just because you aren't one of those white women, it's only fair that they search you because they don't know that.

This happens to you regularly when you're buying milk, getting a pair of socks, checking your phone whilst waiting outside the school for pickup, when you're grabbing a sandwich at lunchtime and whenever you are waiting for your husband to bring the car around whilst you put the shopping trolley back.

And then you find out that the evidence is that, despite the additional searches, people like you are far less likely to be shoplifters compared to everybody else. But you're dismissed as 'well, what's your problem about being taken off to the police station or you being searched by the baskets at Primark's front door if you haven't got a pair of pants shoved up your jumper?'

That's what the Stop and Search figures are the equivalent of.

If you get stopped and have nothing, what’s the issue?

If that's true it suggests that the stops are not motivated by racism. If that were the cause you'd expect a far smaller proportion of black people to be arrested because they'd be mostly innocent.

There was a documentary on bbc one (can’t remember the name) that showed statistically you are more likely to get stopped if you are non-white, more likely to get arrested if you are non-white and more likely to have a worse punishment than a white person for the exact same crime or behaviour whether criminal or not.

@EmbarrassedUser

Maybe it’s because there’s a reason for it? If the data says that the BAME population are more likely to commit a crime then they’ll be stopped. Before I’m accused of racism, this is just a suggestion, not me saying that it’s right.

It's self-fulfilling. The more black people you stop, the more crime you find. If they stopped the same proportion of white people, they would find more white criminals.

That, and it's racist. Kids grow up in an environment where they are seen as criminals. That's not good for anyone.

"..very disingenuously assumes that crime occurs in a vaccum, and that it isn't directly correlated to poverty, deprivation, poor education and lack of social support, all of which disproportionately impact the BAME population in the UK"

That translates as "well BAME people are more likely to commit crimes because they are poor, deprived and have poor education."

Have a think about your own words there because if you're right then on average more BAME people will have committed crimes which is what you were denying.

If that is the case then perhaps instead of denying it we should begin do something about BAME people being put in that position in the first place.

I did my dissertation on this over 20 years ago. It’s fascinating and so sad that nothing has changed.

More chance of being stopped, more chance of being arrested, less chance of a caution, more chance of being charged, less chance of bail, more chance of a harsher sentence. It’s a total cascade. And that’s comparing similar offences.

overtherainbow
Sorry if I am being thick but surely if a similar percentage of each race is being arrested based on the disproportionate stoppages then the stops were correctly done? Or it would be a much lower percentage of the stops on black people?

I’m not really a fan of the people commit crime because they are poor/ disadvantaged defence as plenty of people of all races manage to refrain from breaking the law despite their social circumstances, however I do think this would influence the custodial sentences aspect. If we assume that more black criminals are from a lower social class / have less money than white criminals the lack of access to expensive legal support could definitely be a factor. Has like for like been compared e.g probability of a black working class criminal being sent to prison versus a white working class criminal? (It would be very hard to compare really as class and money are not necessarily related) Stephen Lawrence’s killers were white wc but knew a lot of people in the police and had a lot of money....

My nephew is black
A few years ago he was forever getting stopped in his car
( a souped up 1 litre Ford Fiesta with tinted windows 😂typical boy racer type car )
He worked nights in security so was often driving around the city centre late at night and would stop and chat to his friend in the clubs .
He was forever getting stopped by the police so much he was on first term names with a lot of them I think eventually they put some sort of mark on his car reg so that when ever someone called it in they knew that he was not the “local drug dealer” 😂just a young kid working late nights and no trouble .

But as soon as he changed his car “ he said he didn’t get stopped at all despite driving the same routes .

@Ohalrightthen is spot on re crime not occurring in a vacuum

Also @raddledoldmisanthropist arrest stats alone are meaningless as there's also plenty of evidence that non white people are FAR more likely to be arrested, prosecuted, convicted and receive a harsher sentence for the exact same crime as a white person has committed. Mainly (numerically speaking) the "low level" crimes, possession of small amounts of drugs for personal use, minor thefts etc but can and does include the worst crimes too up to and including child molestation and exploitation, rape and murder.

If you get stopped and have nothing, what’s the issue?

Seriously? How about just because racism is NEVER ok

It's almost 30 years since Stephen Lawrence died, 21 years since the resulting enquiry stated officially that the met was institutionally racist, yet little if anything has changed.

If they stopped the same proportion of white people, they would find more white criminals. exactly

arrest stats alone are meaningless as there's also plenty of evidence that non white people are FAR more likely to be arrested, prosecuted, convicted and receive a harsher sentence for the exact same crime as a white person has committed.

That was my point about being interesting to see whether the arrests follow to prosecutions and what for. If, as suggested, the issue is direct racism from the stopping officers then either those arrests will have a much lower prosecution rate or they will all be for very minor offences.

Still I don't agree that arrest stats mean nothing- otherwise so do stop and search stats. Roughly 1 in 7 arrests is good- if you stopped the general public at random you might get 1 in 1000 reasons to arrest, no matter how much you might dislike a particular ethnicity.

It suggests that S+S is targeted on genuine factors and the similar rates between ethnicities at least suggests the targeting is similarly valid. I completely agree it's impossible to draw a conclusion from one stat, and there could well be racism at play; but if people are just going to argue that all police forces are equally and conciously racist all of the time then what is the point in looking at any data?

Of course just because the targetting may not be racist in this case, does not invalidate the many good points made about upthread about how structural disadvantage plays into this issue.

@Graphista it’s not racist to be stopped and searched by the police. If you don’t have anything, what’s the issue. You get released.

@EmbarrassedUser

Maybe it’s because there’s a reason for it? If the data says that the BAME population are more likely to commit a crime then they’ll be stopped. Before I’m accused of racism, this is just a suggestion, not me saying that it’s right.

But if there is a stereotype about you - you are likely to live up to that stereotype.

If, as a kid, you are labelled 'the dizzy blond'. 'the 'pretty one' 'the dumb one' 'the clever one' 'the trouble maker' 'the smartarse' - whatever it is you are more than likely to use that as an excuse to become even more that way. It stops being a label it becomes who you are or how you see yourself.

That is how stereotypes become reinforced. As children, we have an excuse to believe what we are told. As adults we should be able to see beyond them. Or are you saying that you are not able to do this.