To believe that providing free meals for children

[Completelyfrozen]

Is not enough!
I hear people saying that children shouldn't go hungry and I wholeheartedly agree. It is a travesty in 2020 that any child goes hungry, regardless of the reason behind it, but is that where our responsibility as a society ends?
I want to live in a society where children are provided with a hot meal every day.
A warm dry bed to sleep in at night.
Warm clean dry clothes.
Facilities to wash and brush their teeth.
Warm dry shoes.
An adequate education.
Opportunities to play and socialise.
A safe environment to grow up in.
A home free from damp or mould.
I want to live in a society where adults have access to hot water and washing facilities so they can keep themselves and their children clean.
What can we do, as a nation to address these issues so that children have their most basic requirements met?
YABU - Providing one hot meal per day is enough and parents should provide the rest, despite their circumstances. It is not the govts responsibility to provide anything more.
YANBU - Providing one free meal a day is just the start but as a society, we need to do much much more to ensure children are provided these basic needs and if the parents cannot provide these basic items for any reason, then the govt has a responsibility to step in and provide them.

High private rents and not enough social housing is a major part of the problem. Also lack of childcare out with M-F 8-5. UC doesn't cover the majority of private rents so benefits intended for living on (the non rent portion) have to be used by many people to top up increasingly unaffordable rents. Many of these people work, or they may be unable to work or (shock horror) unemployed.

I agree re the dangerously creeping back in attitude of the 'deserving' and 'undeserving' poor. The formation of the welfare state and the NHS happened around 1948. We seem to be going backwards now.

@Fauvist

OK, but that's not realistic. Why should poor people have to be uprooted from their support networks and everything they have ever known just to make sure their children aren't hungry? How is that fair or kind? I don't understand why we don't seem to want, as a society, to be kind to people who haven't got much in terms of resources.

Yes, I'm in London. If I were jobless and relying on Universal Credit, the last thing I would want to do is have to move hundreds of miles from my friends and family, disrupt my children's schooling and end up with zero local support. I don't actually think it would help the children either. It would be appallingly disruptive and distressing.

So you are suggesting that people shouldn’t have to move if they can’t afford to live in that area? We can’t have everything in life. I had to move for exactly that reason - London was too expensive. It would have been a choice of not affording to live, or moving to a different part of the country.

Yes parents should feed their kids. Yes some parenting is shocking for numerous and complex reasons. Yes absent parents should be supporting their kids. Yes dealing with these issues would be more helpful,long term than increasing benefits.

However, nothing is being done to resolve those issues. FSM is a tiny cost compared to proper programmes to deal with these issues. Government needs to address that but in the meantime, just feed the children!

I think people are very quick to judge parents that they see as feckless, useless or selfish; it’s just not that simple.

People assume that everyone has been given the opportunities and the skills, education, resilience etc. to live a successful life, but just choose not to.

My mum used to say to me, ‘oh look Goat, I’ve made a nutritious meal for a family of five using a reduced bit of lamb and an onion, if I can do it, why can’t they’ neglecting the fact that she has a store cupboard full of other things she’d add, plus 30 years of cooking experience and an ability to read and follow a recipe....in a lovely, clean kitchen full of equipment, with the mental health and motivation to get up and do it in the first place.

Many parents are in dire straits because they are lacking the skills needed to live a successful life.They themselves have usually been neglected, abused or impoverished children who have been chewed up and spat out by the system. It is frustrating to be constantly trying to help and feel that they are not helping themselves, but if their children are left to suffer, history will just repeat itself.

The problems are numerous and deeply ingrained, the Gov needs to do far more than just provide food. However, if we can just ensure children are fed, we are fulfilling a basic need, which might just allow them to concentrate on their learning long enough to pick up a few skills to aid them in their own futures.

According to the Internet, the expression 'It takes a village to raise a child' is originally from Africa, and I'm starting to think it doesn't translate well over here.

Maybe the English version should be: 'It takes two parents to raise a child, and if they need to rely on grandparents, charity, the community or the government then they shouldn't be having children in the first place, the feckless scroungers.'

Anyway YANBU

This all sounds like a lot of kids ending up in care and governments are terrible parents as they don't do individual circumstances. Community efforts are better to address local issues, but it seems people prefer solutions where they don't have to do anything themselves. Can the next thread detailing how kids should be living please detail what that person is doing to make it so.

Saw a tv prog where police and organisations were involved in care of neglected children. There was a 6yr old girl who kept telling them about her ‘princess bedroom’. When they visited the house they found she slept on a bare, urine soaked mattress on the landing. That was a 6yr girl’s way of dealing with the trauma she was suffering.

raskolnikova - totally agree with you

If extending FSM to holidays meant that (somehow) those children got a hot meal delivered to them, ensuring they got something to eat, that would be great - the same provision as term time.

But what's actually on offer are vouchers. Which not all parents will use for food. Is giving out the vouchers better than doing nothing? Arguably yes, because there are some children who will benefit. But what about those who won't and will still be hungry?

As I said before and with the best will in the world, there isn't a magic benefits number at which every child is fed, warm and loved. However much you give them some people will still make selfish choices, manage their money poorly or put their own wants ahead of their child's needs. And that is a difficult problem to resolve.

As mentioned I live in an area of high housing costs. Lots of food banks and other schemes donating food items. But often people using those are not necessarily those most in need, complaining the food is poor quality/ at expiry date/ asking for daily food bags (when each bag has 2-3 days food in it, resulting in the organisers having to make a rule that it's 1 bag every 2-3 days per person).

Some people I know (local businesses and also some individuals) have offered to provide hot meals next week for any families needing them, and deliver them to their homes. Not one person has contacted them.

I work with the "shit" parents (mothers actually). One thing they nearly all have in common is that their parents were also shit and that they have suffered what I call extreme educational poverty. It's just a vicious circle really, these women need not only a lot of practical support but also high levels of intrinsic motivation to break out of this cycle, which is hard when you have reactive MH issues and most likely some sort of addiction. IMHO education is the key, we need to get in at birth like Scandanavia to provide high quality, equal education for all children. The reform will take several generations but more investment into education will pay off in the end. Most of these mothers will be lifetime benefit recipients because they have no qualifications and fear having to earn money. They often instil into their children that they are poor so will never be able to achieve anything, it's almost like a culture that needs to be eradicated.

Yes, it's really hard for these women. They often think they're doing a good job because they are doing much better than their parents did.

@puzzlelover3

It's REALLY not that simple though OP...

I want to live in a society where children are provided with a hot meal every day.- who is going to ensure that the parents do this, if the parents are not the ones cooking then how do they get the meal??
A warm dry bed to sleep in at night.- provided by the government? Are they also going to provide free washing and drying services to sustain it throughout a child's life or are they sending ppl out to check the parents are keeping the beds warm and dry.
Warm clean dry clothes.- same as bed scenario
Facilities to wash and brush their teeth- again are they going to send out a toothbrush every month, are they going to provide a person to come in and make sure parents are ensuring their child brushes their teeth (because those of us who have kids know that sometimes that's a nightly battle!).
Warm dry shoes.
An adequate education.- this is already provided believe it or not.
Opportunities to play and socialise. - already provided through school and playgroups.
A safe environment to grow up in. - this can be provided but it may not be with parents of course, but ultimately that's what social services try to uphold.
A home free from damp or mould. - again this could be provided but some people have no idea how to air out a house and prevent damp so are the government going to send in ppl to monitor this
I want to live in a society where adults have access to hot water and washing facilities so they can keep themselves and their children clean. - they do mostly.
What can we do, as a nation to address these issues so that children have their most basic requirements met?Well I don't know entirely but we are only human and we can't be monitored/policed in all of those area's above. And we could provide parenting classes I suppose but what happens if someone fails it, are they sterilised? are their children taken away? Are they banned from having children?

Some parents will always fail their children, no matter what you provide them with and as hard as it sounds it's impossible to keep on top of OP.

An adequate education is not ALWAYS provided, certainly not to children with SEN and disabilities. Local authorities spend money on trying to deny children with additional needs the right to a fair and adequate education and break the law on this issue with no regard to the stress that that puts the child or their parent under.

It is a travesty.

I get confused by how much people expect the state to provide. The state already provides money to people on low incomes in various ways - housing benefit, FSM, income support, child tax credits, child benefit, childcare subsidies.

I do think we have two big problems in the UK:

• wage suppression due to oversupply of unskilled labour due to unrestricted EU migration.
• excessive rents/housing costs due to undersupply of housing & various other distorting factors.

However, conceptually, I do feel that parents should have to bear some level of responsibility for their own children. I would prefer support to be provided in the form of actual meals eg provided to children at community centres, rather than further cash benefits.

The reality is, most low income families are hard working and organised and thrifty and absolutely can and do manage to feed their children well. The ones who do not may we be the ones with chaotic lives, dysfunction, where financial or substance abuse are involved etc. In those cases that dysfunction means it's even less likely that a benefit in cash form will actually go to the child who needs it.

@puzzlelover3

Here is a link which demonstrates why I don't believe (and nor should any one else) that all children get an adequate education.

This is one example.

I have 2 children who are not in school because there are no schools that meet their needs.

There are 1000s of children like mine. I've had to give up work to support them. Not everyone can afford to do that.No one gives a shit that these chlldren are not educated. Least of all the government.

Sorry forgot link

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/special-educational-needs-sen-school-funding-children-parents-a8867581.html

Some people I know (local businesses and also some individuals) have offered to provide hot meals next week for any families needing them, and deliver them to their homes. Not one person has contacted them.*

Grenlei - this. The reason many mps voted against is because there are already lots of pre-existing community schemes that offer hot meals for children in the school holidays and most are underutilised/not taken up.

And they don't care that another generation of disabled adults (which many of these children will turn out to be) don't have the skills to be anything other than poor.

And we are the 5th largest economy.

And this has nothing to do with the pandemic.

It's shameful.

The thing that irks me is that children go hungry every year. Obviously covid has made things really difficult for a lot of families that would normally cope, and I understand that. But I don’t remember everyone putting Facebook status’s about helping to feed children last year, or the year before that etc. Children have been going hungry for decades, it is not a new thing. It’s terrible and disgusting that we are even talking about it. But it feels like it’s only because of the pandemic that we are talking about it this year. I wonder what will happen in the next couple of years when most people’s lives have hopefully got back to some normality. Will it still be talked about?

@Emmacb82

The thing that irks me is that children go hungry every year. Obviously covid has made things really difficult for a lot of families that would normally cope, and I understand that. But I don’t remember everyone putting Facebook status’s about helping to feed children last year, or the year before that etc. Children have been going hungry for decades, it is not a new thing. It’s terrible and disgusting that we are even talking about it. But it feels like it’s only because of the pandemic that we are talking about it this year. I wonder what will happen in the next couple of years when most people’s lives have hopefully got back to some normality. Will it still be talked about?

You are right people will probably stop caring.

Because one thing I've learned from my situation with 2 disabled children is that not many people really give a shit about others. Most people are blinkered to things that don't effect them personally.

Very well said.

The role of the state has ebbed and flowed over the decades and with the best of intentions just seems to have created a cohort dependent on state help.

Meanwhile the population has increased and the industrial base decreased, and also property rental has become much more widespread than in the 1970s. Existing welfare systems were put in place at a time when population growth was relatively low, and people expected to live in nuclear families as a safety net - not a lifestyle choice. As recipient numbers have become greater, the level of assistance available has decreased.

The horrible part of me hopes those who say parents should pay for everything experience the hardship of job loss and loosing their home. If they do I assume they won't ask for help because it's their responsibility to pay for their children.
I can't believe in this day and age people still think anyone should go without the basics.
We live in a deprived area where most of the children are on FSM. Interestingly all the children who I know have parents who work, it's just that pay is crap and rent prices are ridiculous (there should be a cap on rent).
I feel a bit sorry for those who can't show any empathy.

NoIDontWatchLoveIsland many parents believe they have little to no accountability in raising their children because they grew up constantly hearing them not having money/clothes/housing was the state's fault. A good, equal education for children is the key.

cantdothisnow considering we are a develop ed nation the educational disparity is utterly shocking in NT children, but when you consider SEN provision the figure falls through the floor.

The children from families most in need of this support are far more likely to be excluded from school, regardless of any SN, so no they don't get adequate education. And don't kid yourselves it's because they're bad kids, it's because their lives are ones of such crisis they can't prioritise school rules and schools use every opportunity to get rid of their most challenging/lower achieving students.

For example we've (PRU) just taken on a child excluded for swearing at the teacher who publically humiliated him for his scruffy uniform. Now, maybe it wasn't the first time, probably the child is often railing against authority and injustice but the system has no place for them and certainly doesn't want to ensure they get properly educated, that's only for "decent" people.