To ask why there is such food poverty.

[Helendee]

Please no flaming as I genuinely am seeking answers as to why so many children are going to school hungry these days.
This is not a critical or inflammatory post, I just want to know what’s gone wrong.
Obviously many of us are struggling financially because of Covid but food poverty was a huge problem before that.
Is it that benefit levels are too low to adequately feed our children?
What can we do to ameliorate the situation?

@MikeUniformMike

Around here you need to book a slot at the library.

If you haven't got access to the web, how do you look on Facebook and Freecycle to ask for a device?

I remember that! Our WiFi was down (this was around ten years ago). You got an hour free and an extra hour if you paid. Had to book each hourly slot separately with no guarantee of a free one at a convenient time. There was no privacy and often noisy. Not the best environment to complete job applications (must be awful if your hourly slot runs out before you finish a form).

Security wise not ideal either. I wouldn't want to risk using a usb in a public computer nor would I want to access confidential job, medical, or banking information.

No childcare at the library so no idea what grenlei thinks families with young kids should do whilst mum or dad are jobseeking.

As for the disabled (or parents with disabled children) - including the many people at higher risk from Covid (so best avoiding public libraries for the time being). Well I suppose people like grenlei think they should be stuck at home cut off from the world with no internet and a daily diet of gruel.

At home access to the internet is such a valuable thing. Something many of us take for granted. It provides a world of opportunity. Jobseeking, contact with doctors and mental health and social care support, school work, university applications, online studies, shopping, bill paying and banking, exercise classes, baking and cooking demonstrations, recipes, contact with friends and family.

UC expect you to spend something like 35 hours per week looking for and applying for jobs, which is all online these days. Not sure how you're meant to do that in a public library! Especially if you've also got small children.

It's interesting that you list bedding as an item that needs replacing (implication of regularly?) oh come on! You're being disingenuous! You know that it was simply an example of one of many household items that while each item may need replacing INfrequently anyone who has a family should surely accept there's always bloody something needing replaced! Especially when you don't have the money to buy quality items that last longer!

Ffs!

Proud and happy the Scots govt have stepped up on this, happy to see the welsh have also done so, anyone know what’s happening in Northern Ireland? I can’t find info.

So it's ok to pick TV AND Netflix over being able to provide healthy food for your family? if that’s at me I was addressing another poster.

I’ve been on the bones of my arse missing meals (and clothes, shoes and being clean and warm) so dd ate and was clothed etc and no I wouldn’t have had Netflix at that time if it had been around. I was paying for the basics only - rent, council tax, food, utilities, cancelled my tv licence (and got SO MUCH HASSLE - about that even though I didn’t have a bloody aerial let alone a satellite dish or cable! We watched old videos I’d bought when times were better) I walked 3.5 miles to work and back in leaking shoes and spent a lot of time at the library to stay warm (the first thing I thought of when the libraries closed due to covid was all the others I know of who did this inc many street homeless, my local library the staff are lovely, I’m no longer in that position thankfully but I see how they treat those who are and I love that they’re kind to them)

There are a myriad of things that need to be in place to truly eliminate food poverty, and it's not all about giving people more money, it's investing in services and support which benefit the individual and the family

I agree but it’s even beyond that! This govt has done sod all in terms in investing in the country as a whole, they’re doing nothing meaningful to create jobs! They’re chasing and hassling jobseekers to “get back to work” yet doing bugger all so there’s enough jobs AT LIVEABLE WAGES to do!

Most people WANT to work, they want that independence and all the benefits that come with working - self confidence, contact with others, sense of achievement... they can’t do that if there aren’t enough jobs!

There is just no investment in people

There’s no investment in POOR people - plenty of money being thrown at the already wealthy! Who don’t bloody need it!

Thank you @pepperwort that’s far from an exhaustive list! There’s so much to it

@PatriciaPerch oh yes to the judging! Lost count how many times “support services” or “support workers” have assumed I must be stupid JUST because I have a PHYSICAL disability and am unemployed. I hold 2 degrees and worked until I absolutely couldn’t. I’m not an idiot just because I’m needing help in certain areas!

@AlexTheHalloweenCat - yes I just looked up for another thread - gap between lowest paid workers and ceos now is the ceo earns on average 117 times more than the low paid worker! That’s obscene!

Regarding those who FOOLISHLY think “it’ll never happen to me” well that’s only true if you ARE the likes of Johnson, jrm etc because unless you are very wealthy and independently so it absolutely can happen to you!

I’m LUCKY in that I’m white, reasonably well educated, articulate and quite assertive (these days - didn’t use to be! Small silver linings!) I’ve had very interesting real life and online discussions elsewhere on sm where people have outlined their circumstances and they are VERY similar to what mine were when I had dd. They know/knew my circumstances after my accident (the cause of my disability) and ASSUMED I was somehow at fault? I’ve seen them visibly display shocked reactions when I tell them my last job, salary and conditions, how we were living at that time etc (if they’re locals they knew the street we were living in which was in a “naice” part of town etc) it really throws them.

I think it would be very good and very interesting if someone like panorama did an episode bringing people like me together with people who think “it’ll never happen to me”, show them how the now sick/disabled person used to live and how close it is to THEIR circumstances.

I actually had at one point someone come to me, on the quiet as it were, asking for advice as their husband had become ill and lost his job, she’d been a Sahm (no judgment just for background) and they needed to claim benefits until she could find a job to “replace” his (that’s a whole other story!). At one point in the initial conversation she said something like “we just didn’t think something like this could happen to people like us” at which point I looked at her askance and she furiously back-pedalled! Even though she was now “like them” she was still resisting the mental adjustment. She didn’t take all my advice either and was too proud to claim/access certain help which left them really stuck at one point and caused a massive row with her husband, where he basically had to say to her she needed to stop being too proud to accept help!

@vaggiemight Look at the current cabinet, most of them and their families are millionaires and billionaires. and yet still accepting £81k plus salaries and thousands in expenses etc!

@FaultyMain5 I’ve used a granny trolley a lot, but I’m now in a 4th floor flat no lift. No way I could carry a weeks shopping up 4.5 flights of stairs (half flight from entrance to “ground” floor) without probably doing myself a serious injury!

@OnlyFoolsnMothers unfortunately the Tories and those who support such views (deserving v undeserving poor etc) think those of us on benefits are unworthy of any pleasure in life whatsoever! Being poor is viewed as a “failure” and a character flaw!

Not as it almost always is DOWN TO BAD LUCK!

Just as being wealthy is DOWN TO GOOD LUCK - does anyone really think the likes of Johnson, jrm or the nobility EARNED their good fortune?! Did they fuck! Many of their families made their fortunes off the graft and sacrifice of the poorest in society!

@Abraid2 the last 15 years for me have been one thing after a-bloody-nother! Several who know me and my family in real life have made comments along the lines of “if you wrote a book nobody would believe you that it’s all happened to one person” which is true. But I know others who’ve had it similarly difficult or even worse. A friend of mine who has 2 disabled dc, both diagnosed after 2nd was born, different conditions, husband buggered off “couldn’t cope”, has mild learning difficulties herself but was working until dc2 was born but they need full time care, she’s been barely managing and has now been dx with a life limiting illness herself and is worried sick what’s going to happen to her kids when she dies cos their dad isn’t interested and her parents are already too old and frail to care for them. Yet she’s treated as if she CHOSE this shit!

@feelingverylazytoday - yes there was poverty before 2010 but not to the extent there is now and not as wisdespread, as for your comment re “Labour govt” if you mean new labour that’s debatable, although they were marginally better than the current riot!

@pamdemic that’s a great link to the CPAG article. Unfortunately with Brexit much of what that article states are the causes of child poverty are going to worsen even more with brexit. I’m generally not a fan of bringing Brexit into every argument but it’s pertinent here, especially wrt employment rights.

@boudiccasboudoir - yep! It’s constant “firefighting” without a chance to catch your breath and assess.

@firedragon101

I agree with "mostly down to luck", but I think that starts at conception

Of course it does, from genetics to the kind of family you’re born into (addicts galore and abusive on one side in my case), their circumstances (working class, both parents were born into slums literally), their ability to provide, what this means for the child’s development, education etc.

So much of what is taught by schools is dictated by people who are naturally academic and aim for a academic achievement instead of practical attainment and often don't understand the poverty cycle

Totally agree, where I was lucky was both parents are practical, common sense types so I was taught to cook, change a tyre, mend clothes, wire a plug...

I was also in school at a time where SOME practical education was still valued but it was starting to go down the academic route.

Re mental illness as someone with serious mental illness I have met far far too many people who view it and treat it as if the sufferer is a failure at life! Inc mh hcps! I have severe ocd (believed to be at least partly genetic which I would agree with as I have several relatives I believe are/were undx sufferers) which has led to agoraphobia (over 3 years housebound this time) and depression and anxiety. I HATE IT. To the point I can totally understand why patients in the past agreed to lobotomies! If I could cut the damn thing out my head I would I’d fucking do it myself! Yet I’ve had numerous (probably hundreds) of people say things like “well you just have to be strong and fight it” I think I’m very bloody strong actually! The people that say this kinda shite imo couldn’t manage my life for 1 day! “You’re not trying hard enough” - to get better! Said by more than a few hcps inc a consultant psychiatrist! “Just ignore them” re the intrusive thoughts - I wish! I even dream in bloody ocd!

@dontdisturbmenow when were you last on benefits? A lot of the rules have changed, they’ve been frozen, capped etc plus those who were able to work were always better off even on top up benefits than those on benefits alone and that’s more true now than ever. I’ve been on benefits in one form or another for 18 years now, sometimes when working, sometimes as a student, mostly unemployed due to disability, I was generally speaking better off working and getting top up benefits except in the early days but that was due to child maintenance was included in calculations then, even if the nrp wasn’t paying regularly (which was the main problem!)

People in work on the same income have one thing available to them that those not working don’t - credit!

I know marriages break down sometimes but if you have been together a while and are secure then there is less chance of it not working than hoping from man to man having children

Divorce stats are almost 50/50, plus have you even been on the relationships board? Loads of women the same sort of experience I had, met fell in love with and married a man after a few years together, married several years, plan a family together no indication of future bad behaviour whatsoever...then he had an affair with a neighbour, i found out and kicked him out, not an easy decision, less than 2 weeks later it turns out she’s pregnant! Even before that point he emptied the joint bank accounts, took the family car and took valuables from the family home without telling me inc family heirlooms from my family! No red flags prior to split, even his own siblings and parents were totally shocked at his behaviour.

We worked hard ugh the most bullshit excuse offered up by the privileged! As if all those working nmw jobs don’t work really bloody hard too!! Get over yourself!

@sinuhe is right too, taking a risk is more daunting as you get older and have more responsibilities and far more risky the poorer you are

IMO a business that requires it's employees wages to be topped up with benefits probably shouldn't be in business. it’s particularly galling when it’s large companies declaring profits in the millions! But yes I agree

I would say to anyone who queries why there is food poverty today, look at your own buffer zone and what how many hundred or thousands of pounds it is and how you paid for unexpected problems. It's that savings figure which makes a difference, imo. shelter reckon HALF of all working renters are ONE payday away from eviction proceedings.

Lots of people have a mobile phone for themselves and their DC .These are needed and an essential item in my mind

How can this be more important than food?

It’s a necessity to get the means to buy food! You can’t claim benefits now without a smart phone, crucial for job seeking too.

It doesn't matter what your wage is (assuming a normal wage not millions from a trust fund) a disability or a disabled child can throw you into poverty quicker than you can imagine.

YES!

We have skills shortages in this country, therefore it must be possible to train for something and get a job in it.

😂😂😂

Aye, cos this govt has ANY clue whatsoever of economics, working class lives or how employers treat the young and vulnerable!

Apprenticeships are in too many places the new yts! Cheap labour for dodgy employers who have NO. Intention of hiring them past apprenticeship stage at even nmw let alone promoting them! There’s even some claiming they’re offering an apprenticeship position and they’re lying, they’re not registered or providing the required training

Our benefit system is abused by foo many

considering more is unclaimed (because the govt goes out of its way to limit communicating the info of what people are eligible for) than is fraudulently claimed (and “fraudulently” is a debatable descriptor as the govt stats on this INCLUDES when it’s THEIR cock up and they’ve overpaid in error and not large amounts that it would be obvious to the claimants)

Biggest abusers of the benefit system are employers and politicians
Yep!!

Its not skills or bad decisions that mark the difference between the haves and have nots. It's having enough money to compensate for mistakes or misfortune or lack of skills or not having enough money to do so that marks the difference.

Excellently put!

@Graphista
I’ve used a granny trolley a lot, but I’m now in a 4th floor flat no lift. No way I could carry a weeks shopping up 4.5 flights of stairs (half flight from entrance to “ground” floor) without probably doing myself a serious injury!

I was raised on the 13th floor of a block of flats, the reason I'm so cool with a granny trolley is because my mum used one. We did have lifts, but guess what, they were regularly broken down. Fine if dad was home, not so fine if he had to work a second job. I dont know how she did it. But she found a way.

Yes, up till the day my dad was injured at work he had two jobs. He can just about read and the classes that were free in those days he wasnt available for as he was providing for his family with two jobs.

So for those banging on about getting education STFU, not every situation is the same.

@Supersimkin2

Whisper it, but as well as parents with drink and drug problems, parents with low IQ struggle.

Their coping skills - or lack of them - can make a huge difference to parenting and child nutrition, alongside parents who've been badly brought up themselves.

You can have more than one of these problems, too.

90 per cent of mothers who lose their DC to the care system have IQs of under 70, which isn't low enough to be deemed disabled, but...

where do you get your facts and figures from? They are totally wrong!

I work specifically with people with an IQ of 70 or below more commonly known as 'learning disabled people'

Back to broadband poverty, to the pp @grenlei, if you don't have internet access and no device, even if you were lucky enough to find one on free sites and be offered it, how would you go to collect it? You might need money for a bus fare.

I've had free site things from the same or nearby street, but when I offer things, I usually wait until I've had several people ask for it.
I do this so that I can let people who don't have a smartphone or only have limited internet access have a chance,

Often the people who ask for it haven't even read the description - I offered a piece of engineering equipment and a mother asked if she could have it for her 6-yr old! I was tempted to report her to social services

Also just following on re broadband poverty and well just use a library. While libraries might be more easily accessible in cities (although you could still end up paying for public transport there and back which you might not be able to afford) my library is a van that travels around once a week and briefly stops at lots of locations in the area, no computer to use on it. I live in an area with lots of rural poverty.

I see more fat children now than ten year ago. Ten years old with red face because too fat!

Most of the libraries in this county closed to save money. The one in our town is run by volunteers a couple of times a week, or at least it was pre Covid. They are talking about reopening once a week for a few hours. It would not be possible to use the internet there for job searches because your time in the library will be limited.

Obesity in children is much more prevalent than it was when I at school.
I can only remember the odd 'fat' kid at school, whereas if I pop into my local town centre, I am likely to see many overweight and possibly obese children.

We have a family member who fostered 13 babies and small children over a five year period. Most were destined for adoption, removed from the parents at birth. In most cases drug and or alcohol abuse were the main factors. IQ had nothing to do with it.

Growing up in the 1980s, my DH and his brother were fed, but was told by their mother on some days that its OK, she's not hungry. Their dad was long-term unemployed. They had a traditional outlook back then, mum looks after the kids, dad works. Dad's job was replaced by mechanisation, so he had no other skills. Husband remembers getting clothes donated from an older cousin, which would then go to his younger brother. Toys etc, ditto. Vouchers were handed out for uniform, milk tokens were provided. He remembers the stigma of being poor. It was too obvious. There were a couple of occasions where the family hid from loan sharks. They relied a lot on other family members who donated things to them. In the late 1980s his dad got a job with London Transport and their "lot" was improved. But there is a legacy. My husband never did well at school because of this social stigma and was effectively told he wouldn't amount to anything. He wanted to study archaeology (no fees back then) but he had a label and his teachers were reluctant to help him. Secondly, when he left school at 16 his dad was still unemployed so he decided to go out and work instead, only temporarily, but his self esteem was low, and he's been in the same job ever since. Thirdly, he is PARANOID about food waste and our food budget. He get very anxious when food "goes over". He eats my DD'S leftovers on her plate so it won't be thrown in the bin.

Poverty takes over your life and remains with you however your circumstances might change for the better. But I think it's worse now, and even more complicated. DH's dad never had to wait 6 weeks for his benefit, for example. I am lucky, I'm in a well-paid job with only a tiny risk to it. I cannot imagine the worry a lot of people have right now.

FatimaMunchy the vast majority of young people who abuse drugs/alcohol are at the bottom end of IQ scores. Their parents often had substance addictions too.

Zatarontoast I only have anecdotal evidence. The children who were adopted may well have problems because of their parents' addictions.

I haven’t read the whole thread so might be repeating but wanted to make a few points.
Wages vs cost of living/inflation not in line.
Nature of work has changed, more gig economy, less job security, zero hours. Difficult to budget and also technically employment figures hide true nature of family’s financial situation.
Fewer successful marriages, higher proportion of single parent families so more strain on financials for those that do support two households and many parents (usually fathers) that don’t contribute at all.

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation tracks this and is excellent if you want to find out more. Here’s a screenshot of poverty in the UK of working households which is shocking. If you go to their website you can break down further and they have eye opening reports.

@LedaandtheSwan Your father's attitude is ordinary for that much despised and even openly hated generation. Food and clothes were scarce and costly as a proportion of average earnings, before around the nineteen sixties or seventies.

Anyone whose parents or grandparents had lived through war and food rationing and serious food shortage and absence of luxuries and imports, which cost lives to bring into the country. Hours of queueing, and tending back yard vegetables and chickens and rabbits, on top of long hours conscripted labour of civilians female or male, and bitter cold in uninsulated homes with frost inside the glass, meant people needed to feel everyone was in the same boat.*

If anyone, astonishingly, had more than enough of some kind of food, they were expected to share or to preserve, so wasting it would have been a slap in the face for the rest of the war effort, and the equivalent of peeing on the graves of the war dead. Flaunting luxury, or wasting anything, especially food, would bring social ostracism. Some of that attitude will have sunk into the minds of the children and then been passed to some grandchildren.

That is exactly the attitude we all need to return to now. The planet and the country cannot afford a fake idol of consumerism fuelled by debt, waste and imports

*The royal family did make do and mend and make an effort to stay to their ration book allowance, the current Queen and her sister went to work as motor mechanics, and she still hates waste and goes round turning off lights. Her mother was pleased when the palace was bombed, because, as she said, "Now I can look the East End in the face".

(I'm second to none in my contempt for the revolting antics of the surplus royals, but surprised the central core royals are so much hated and politicians so much loved to be heads of state, even hero worshipped. Politicians wallowing drunkenly in toughs of gold from the tax-purse would logically seem distasteful, exempting themselves from rules now, and consistently back through history, notably in every international and national emergency, particularly the cigar smoking champagne and brandy drinking 'hero' Churchill)

@MariolaIsHere

I see more fat children now than ten year ago. Ten years old with red face because too fat!

Yes exactly. Cheap beige carbs are too often more affordable and accessible than a healthy diet of variety, veg, and fresh unprocessed foods.

@SheepandCow, are they though, or do we just think they are.
Is it that people don't know how to prepare cheap, nutritious food?