AIBU to wonder why the response of "LTB" so often?

[LTBorBLT]

This is a genuine question, sorry if it comes off as goady. I've NCed as well in case this gets taken the wrong way!

In most threads I see relating to relationships, a lot of problems are met with a general "LTB" response. I'm not talking about abuse or the relationship being completely dead in the water thing as obviously that's reasonable to consider leaving, I mean more along the lines of someone's husband being overweight or having a different sex drive for example (using husband as a generalisation though of course could be wife / partner etc etc).

I just wonder if people would actually leave their partners over this or advocate for other people to do it, or is it just an easy response to fire out? Legitimately curious, because unless there's abuse or serious issues I'm rarely keen to recommend "LTB" personally.

@steppemum I guess I've just seen some posts where it wasn't abusive (at least in any way that I could see, but I was abused in various different ways and think I'm relatively clued up to abuse now). I don't know, maybe the line between doing a bit of a shit thing sometimes and being abusive are blurry - I just know that I've had partners do shit things sometimes but they're ultimately loving, committed people who make mistakes. - Obviously absolutely not excusing abuse in any shape or form though -

Might just be my perception.

I don't think that happens much, OP. If anything, in examples like the ones you mention, you might get one extreme poster saying LTB, but the vast majority will suggest ways of resolving the problem.

On threads with significant numbers of people calling LTB, I think it's pretty much always justified tbh. It's depressing what many women tolerate from their partners. LTB shouldn't only be reserved for abusive partners. It should be for any partner who doesn't make you happier than you would be without him.

@lazylinguist

I don't think that happens much, OP. If anything, in examples like the ones you mention, you might get one extreme poster saying LTB, but the vast majority will suggest ways of resolving the problem.

On threads with significant numbers of people calling LTB, I think it's pretty much always justified tbh. It's depressing what many women tolerate from their partners. LTB shouldn't only be reserved for abusive partners. It should be for any partner who doesn't make you happier than you would be without him.

"LTB shouldn't only be reserved for abusive partners. It should be for any partner who doesn't make you happier than you would be without him."

@lazylinguist I hear what you mean and can acknowledge that my perception might be off. I guess for me if we only see one side of one specific issue, it's not always clear if a poster would be happier with or without her partner (particularly if she's not said she's happy overall / all the time).

Could just be the threads I read or the way I pick things up though.

*sorry accidentally quoted haha!

But isn't this questioning the rational ability of women, just by the backdoor?

Seriously, how many women who've posted for a minor whinge about their DP would actually LTB just because a bunch of strangers on the internet who are only getting 1% of a situation and only THAT because she's bored and fed up and feels like a moan?

Telling someone to LTB doesn't mean she's going to say 'right-oh' and go off and pack her bags! I'm sure most women can rationally read through a thread replying to their situation and winnow out the advice. If that advice is overwhelmingly LTB, and she thinks about the situation and realises that, yes, it's abuse, then fair enough. But don't you reckon most posters are going to stare at the thread, then at their blameless partner who just happened to lose his shit at the end of a long, trying and sleepless day, and think 'nah, I'm good, actually.'

@Zaphodsotherhead I don't think people would read an "LTB" and think they automatically must hop on the next flight out of the country. But I do think it can have risks of getting people concerned about their partner being a bastard for more minor things that most people are a bastard about, which can cause bigger issues. E.g lots of people are grumpy when they don't get a lot of sleep, when they have early work, when they're hungry, when they have a long flight etc etc.

You can be a bit grumpy and short with your partner without necessarily being a terrible spouse, and simultaneously I feel a bit like people who post right after things have happened don't give their partners much time to explain themselves. We're all dickheads in one element of life, and sometimes someone might need a break (or potentially a flounce!) to apologise and explain why they were not nice earlier.

Though this is reiterating that abuse does not come under this umbrella at all in any way

@Zaphodsotherhead

But isn't this questioning the rational ability of women, just by the backdoor?

Seriously, how many women who've posted for a minor whinge about their DP would actually LTB just because a bunch of strangers on the internet who are only getting 1% of a situation and only THAT because she's bored and fed up and feels like a moan?

Telling someone to LTB doesn't mean she's going to say 'right-oh' and go off and pack her bags! I'm sure most women can rationally read through a thread replying to their situation and winnow out the advice. If that advice is overwhelmingly LTB, and she thinks about the situation and realises that, yes, it's abuse, then fair enough. But don't you reckon most posters are going to stare at the thread, then at their blameless partner who just happened to lose his shit at the end of a long, trying and sleepless day, and think 'nah, I'm good, actually.'

On its own, it certainly wouldn't but Mumsnet is essentially an echo chamber that supports most women the vast majority of the time and blames most men the majority of the time. Over time, it gives regular posters the impression that their unrealistic expectations are realistic or that their own unacceptable behaviour is reasonable. This belief would cause women to leave their partners in situations where their marriage would've been fine if posters had taken ten seconds to consider the bias in her version of events or missing information.

Men frequently treat women like shit.

Women frequently feel they should put up with it.

Of course, sometimes women are the ones in the wrong - women aren't the only gender to suffer domestic abuse, for example - but more often than not, men are just awful. If you're being gaslighted - and this happens a lot - it's hard to see that for yourself. It takes an army of people shouting at you to get you to even consider the possibility that something might not be quite right.

Those of us who have been treated like shit before and got out are quite likely to pipe up to try and prevent someone else from going through the same experience. And we have to be vocal/blunt about it, because women are not conditioned to stick up for themselves.

I mean, we have sayings like "lie back and think of Britain" and only had laws about marital rape written in 2003. What the hell is that about?

LTB is bandied around a bit too much by keyboard warriers, but on the whole, the kindest thing women can do to support other women, is to remind them of their self-worth, and to let them know they don't have to put up with shit. Leaving isn't failure and it's not giving up - it's sometimes the right thing to do for a woman's physical safety and/or emotional wellbeing.

Women are allowed to put themselves first. We often won't give ourselves permission to do that, so we need someone else to tell us.

Jeez, society has a lot to answer for. A lot.

@lazylinguist I hear what you mean and can acknowledge that my perception might be off. I guess for me if we only see one side of one specific issue, it's not always clear if a poster would be happier with or without her partner (particularly if she's not said she's happy overall / all the time).

Yes, but as on any other kind of thread where posters give their opinions, all they can do is say what they would do (or what they hope they would do) in the OP's position. Different people set their bar of acceptable partner characteristics at different levels. And some people are much more willing to be single than others.

For me, the vast, vast majority of men described on the Relationships board sound like I'd a million times rather be single than be in a relationship with them. Not just the abusive ones. The lazy ones, the shouty ones, the bad fathers, the pestering for sex ones, the porn-watching ones, the ones who neglect their family for their hobby, the borderline alcoholic ones, the ones who take (any) illegal drugs. And more. I'd unquestionably rather be single forever than even date any of them, never mind be married to them!

Nobody's happy all the time, but your partner should not be the source of any unhappiness, he should be the one who helps you get through it.

@rainkeepsfallingdown Men frequently do treat women like shit, yes. But I don't think you can hold one specific man to the crimes of what others in his gender commits, unless he personally commits that crime as well.

More often than not, men are just awful.
I've been abused by men in my family & sexually groomed and coerced by multiple men, but I still don't agree with this idea. I've met more nice blokes than I have utter shitheads - I agree that the utter shitheads often commit serious and heinous crimes, but I similarly don't think it's best to take your (justified) anger out on individual men who haven't committed the crimes / done the terrible things we're alluding to.

I guess I think you can remind women of their self worth in ways that doesn't automatically demonise men - e.g. if you have a husband who's a bit shit sometimes for potential aforementioned reasons, you can say "This is a way he may always be a bit shit, and you're within your rights to leave if that's what you choose to do. You can also try and get help for this thing, if he agrees to it, which he should if he cares about you" for example.

@lazylinguist Partners are sometimes a source of unhappiness. It's about weighing the good with the bad IMO - e.g. I'm happy every day for 6 months and then sometimes we have a fight and he upsets me (and this is fine / not fine because I'm fine with this relationship).

I think it depends if the temporary unhappiness overarches your overall happiness. I guess that's the criteria for me, personally.

**Sorry should say "this is fine / not fine because I'm fine / not fine with this relationship"). E.g it's up to how much happiness people need in order to feel satisfied in their relationship, as I don't think you can get 100%. Partners can also cause you unhappiness and still want to help you get through it IMO.

@LTBorBLT Oh, I agree you can't blame someone for the crimes of anyone else - of course, there are good men out there. I have some truly wonderful male friends who are very good husbands and fathers - absolute gems. But men and women are wired differently and conditioned differently by society, so a lot of men treating women badly isn't really a surprise. They can get away with it because it's normalised. So, a lot of cries to LTB statistically works out.

I would always encourage a woman to work through solvable problems with her partner and I would never blindly assume she was always in the right. But if a woman has been repeatedly treated badly by a partner and he shows no signs of changing, and/or if what he has done to her is bad enough to warrant it, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest getting out.

It's such a sterotype, but many women are drawn towards projects. They think they can change someone. That's not how life works. And again, that's one scenario where outside perspective helps - a partner can in some circumstances change, but we can't make a partner change. The will has to come from the person needing to make a change.

In my experience of life, women treat men worse than men treat women. Women get away with more because we're physically weaker and so are the assumed victims. Men are shamed if they're the victims of abuse and men are taught to obey their wife's wishes or they're abusive. Manipulation, cheating and coercion are very common amongst women.

@Davespecifico

I’ve never read an unwarranted LTB on here. Normally the OP is describing horrendous behaviour that has no place within the parameters of a normal healthy relationship.

That's exactly what I think. I read threads like this and think, which threads are they reading? I've read some horrific stories on here where the attitude and behaviour are so awful that I can't see how the relationship can be repaired.

@rainkeepsfallingdown I agree with all you've said honestly. I can hold your view on that and still think that people bash out LTB when it's unnecessary to be honest - I guess I just think if you have other thoughts than the exact wording of "Leave the bastard" then it won't go amiss if you share it with a worried OP.

I'll take myself as an example OP. Some years back I posted about my marriage, as I had just found out about yet another affair. I married my first boyfriend so wasn't wordly wise in relationships so I just thought that what was happening day to day was normal. The more advice I got and the more I posted, I realised that the affair was really just the tip of the iceberg. Quite innocently I mentioned that went he went away he would hide my vibrator (which was only to be used by him on me) which again I didn't think anything of. Until I read the replies saying actually op this isnt OK. Many posters then asked more stuff which I replied to and as I typed stuff out it actually just hit me that i was in an abusive relationship that didn't occur to me before. Many of those posters who gave me advice then are on this very thread now and I will be forever grateful. I didn't do anything at the time but started realizing and making an exit plan and by the following year we were seperated.

Now I am out the other side, I think (hope) that I am also one of those helpful posters who can now pick up on a genuine issue. And yes I have seen the odd ridiculous ltb reply but the majority of posts after that are usually a lot more helpful regarding the current situation as its posted. You will also usually find posters delving a little deeper as most of the time, the main issue is someone underneath, not what the thread title says.

I think a lot of it is women role-playing the "take no shit" person that they wish they were.
It's generally foolish to take anything you read on a forum without a hefty dose of salt.

If I'd posted about my relationship 10 years ago, I would have been told that my OH was abusive, didn't really loved be, never I tended to marry me and was just making empty promises and that is be much better off without him because he'd never change. Without a doubt.

10 years later, we are happily married and very much in love, in a secure relationship.

MNs are much to quick to judge, take a black or white view of any relationship and are quick to assume that people, circumstances, views never change.

My experience is that some of the worse relationships have turned into the most stabled ones, whilst the seemingly perfect couple are full of secrets and deceipt.

Nothing wrong with gaging views but I find it so sad when posters make drastic decisions to leave a partner based on the biased opinion of complete strangers who couldn't care less about the OP.

@SicklyToaster Yep. Not sure, maybe it's a way for some people to relive what they wish they had done differently at the first sign of trouble (even if the circumstances are different).

@isthismylifenow @dontdisturbmenow Your posts both maybe demonstrate that there are two sides to the issue (as mentioned above about some people seeing the unreasonable LTB threads and others not). Ultimately I think a lot of it is perception and how you see your relationship - I guess I just don't like the threads where OP say things along the lines of "I'm happy in my relationship I just don't like x" and people still try to do the whole LTB thing. It seems like throwing away the whole relationship when it's not humanly possible to do better in some cases (e.g. where it's a minor character flaw, that everyone you date / marry would have just different types or contexts).

So is your main objection the use of the word "bastard" to describe men who have not had a full criminal trial weigh up all the evidence about their conduct? You keep labouring this point about how unfair the use of that word is and interpreting it extremely literally.

It seems like this has hit a nerve with you because you're feeling a) personally attacked because you relate to some of the examples given as things you've done, and b) that the good men in your life are being unfairly criticised by use of the term "bastard" to refer to other unrelated men.

Sometimes being abused impairs your ability to recognise forms of abuse different to your own.

It is not necessarily something that makes you an expert on any form of abuse besides what you experienced yourself.

@user116439526896 Some PPs have mentioned the idea that saying "LTB" is to do with saying something along the lines of "You can leave if you want to, as often women are pressured not to leave their husbands" but I think this point can be mentioned without there being a guilty party necessarily. E.g. if you REALLY hate that your DH leaves his dirty socks lying around, it's a bit of a dick move on his part but if you decide to leave it's because you can't cope with that specific negative trait (rather than him being a "bastard" if you get my drift). This is just an example though.

I guess I'll cop to the idea of feeling defensive over the good blokes in my life, I think that's probably true. But I also feel like if on Dadsnet or some other similar site there was a chorus of "Leave the Bitch" it would be considered misogynistic and horrible. I guess it just seems like if you truly think someone should leave their partner, (unless he's been abusive) you can explain why you believe that without the LTB chorus.

Just expressing some viewpoints, and can acknowledge I may be biased or look at different posts / threads than other people.

I think it depends if the temporary unhappiness overarches your overall happiness. I guess that's the criteria for me, personally.

Yes, fair enough. I don't think MNers would advise LTB over one argument every 6 months though, unless it involved something like physical violence or unforgivably abusive language, or revealed an extreme attitude that the OP could not live with.

Ultimately, the vast majority of LTB comments are about abusive, useless or unpleasant partners. When it's about a non-extreme, specific incident, posters invariably ask about what the relationship is like generally, and whether similar incidents have happened before. Yes sure there will be the occasional poster who says LTB over something minor - because there are all sorts of folks on MN.

And tbh very often when someone starts a thread questioning the frequency of LTB advice on MN, it becomes apparent that they have fairly skewed boundaries or a low bar themselves.

And tbh very often when someone starts a thread questioning the frequency of LTB advice on MN, it becomes apparent that they have fairly skewed boundaries or a low bar themselves.

@lazylinguist Do you consider me to have these things based on what I've said?

@rainkeepsfallingdown

Men frequently treat women like shit.

Women frequently feel they should put up with it.

Of course, sometimes women are the ones in the wrong - women aren't the only gender to suffer domestic abuse, for example - but more often than not, men are just awful. If you're being gaslighted - and this happens a lot - it's hard to see that for yourself. It takes an army of people shouting at you to get you to even consider the possibility that something might not be quite right.

Those of us who have been treated like shit before and got out are quite likely to pipe up to try and prevent someone else from going through the same experience. And we have to be vocal/blunt about it, because women are not conditioned to stick up for themselves.

I mean, we have sayings like "lie back and think of Britain" and only had laws about marital rape written in 2003. What the hell is that about?

LTB is bandied around a bit too much by keyboard warriers, but on the whole, the kindest thing women can do to support other women, is to remind them of their self-worth, and to let them know they don't have to put up with shit. Leaving isn't failure and it's not giving up - it's sometimes the right thing to do for a woman's physical safety and/or emotional wellbeing.

Women are allowed to put themselves first. We often won't give ourselves permission to do that, so we need someone else to tell us.

Jeez, society has a lot to answer for. A lot.

I agree with you. On reddit relationships threads it's often geared towards telling men to leave and women to put up so MN feels like a nice change.

For example a man was told to leave his girlfriend because she didn't like spicy food and he did and while she was happy to cook them separate meals hers not being spicy ruined his enjoyment of his own meal... anyone telling him to grow up was down voted and told he should leave if he's unhappy.

Whereas in the same subreddit a woman was told to try talking to her boyfriend and try counselling (and they were the best replies) because he's a porn addict who wants her to dress up as a child and pretend she's a child while they have sex, he works part time she works full time, he does nothing round the house and he's rude to her all the time. 'Maybe he's depressed' 'don't kink shame people' 'men don't see mess like women do' 'watch porn with him'. Replies telling her to leave were down voted and peopled called toxic feminists etc.