The MN manual of living together

[Sparklfairy]

NB: I'm single and there's no man on the horizon looking to move in. But I have seen so many scenarios on MN where the man has moved in and taken the piss, or the other extreme, they have moved in and their choice is to leave is to become homeless.

As a layperson (that clearly no one wants to live with anyway!) What is the holy grail?

A) they move into your place, turn into a dick, don't pay anything, it's almost guaranteed they will become a cocklodger. I suppose you can kick them out. They have no comeback about bills etc. MN will tell you off for finding a cocklodger

B) you move into his place. You can leave whenever you like and bills are his but he also has the power and you're walking into a homeless abyss. Worst case you could come home and he's locked you out!

C) 50/50 sounds sensible until he realises that you're liable for the bills he doesn't pay, which can get messy. You're sat they're paying his half while he eats your food and gets designer watches

Is the only answer simply to never live with a man?

Before some snide MNer comes on. My examples are actual quotes from actual threads, so no, I'm not "jealous"

Seriously though, how do you move in and protect yourself? Yes ok most of your partners are thankfully not dicks, but we all know it can go pear shaped in a second.

Personally, I'm not interested in a domestic partnership with someone I'm not married to. My ideal is either a live-out lover, who I don't have to discuss cleaning rotas and bins with, or a husband, with whom I enjoy the purpose-built protections of marriage for the household that we've formed (that's what I currently have, and we didn't live together first). I don't want to drift into things. I'm a businesslike bride!

I moved in with a woman and we've had none of the issues that seem to come up here on MN with the fellas! Although I'm aware ' be a lesbian' is really either something you are or aren't and not something to try to be just to get someone to help with half of everything and use a hoover properly...

Oh, and we married and bought a place together so that helped...

But for two people to be really efficient cohabiting they have to really be quite a tight team. It pretty much has to either be 50/50 or you have to have the old-fashioned version where one person is breadwinner and the other one does the domestic work.

Ours is a mixture. I work part time and do the lion's share of the domestic work. Dh does an appropriate amount given his working hours. In terms of workload and free time, I'd say I have by far the better deal and certainly the least stressful life. I'm looking for a full time job. If I find one, we will get a cleaner. Our dc are 12 and 15, so don't need much active looking after. It all works very well tbh.

Oh and my other tip is to each have your own areas of responsibility. I can't be doing with squabbles about whose turn it is. Everyone's problem is no-one's problem
As it stands, I pretty much only do jobs I like doing (quite a few). There are jobs that neither of us care enough to do, like ironing. I also intend to train DC up when old enough.

I've always earnt at least as much as him, plus he's not a dick. We appreciate what the other does, and we both take pride in making our house a home. I think we are "a tight team", yes.

There was a thread on the FWR board recently about a man who claimed that women had evolved to love housework (hence it was fine for men not to do much), and some posters there rightly pointed out that men traditionally pulled their weight around the house and garden, DIY and growing veg etc, and how many modern men do much of that now, instead of gaming or cycling in their free time?

I also think one of the keys is having standards that you are both happy with.

Our house is clean and tidy, but not a show home. So many of the arguments that are discussed often seem to be when you have one untidy person and one minimalist obsessive cleaner. That’s never going to be a happy combination.

Our garden is functional and has some lovely fruit trees and bushes, but will never win any landscaping awards. My BIL and his ex toward constantly over their garden because he wants to be Alan Titchmarsh and she felt his time could be much better used inside the house.

@Mrsmedley

I moved in with a woman and we've had none of the issues that seem to come up here on MN with the fellas! Although I'm aware ' be a lesbian' is really either something you are or aren't and not something to try to be just to get someone to help with half of everything and use a hoover properly...

Two gay guys here, not having the gender roles society enforces has a big impact on a lot of gay male relationships as well.

The answer is to find a good man who treats your right! I was a student when I met DH so I had no savings (however luckily no debt) and only earned a pittance through teaching. He bought our house and then proposed so we’re now married and he redid the deeds so my name is on them. He inherited a six figure sum and put it into a savings bond in both our names. I don’t think that things will go pear shaped as he is a wonderful husband and we are very happy but he has set it up that I will be fine regardless. There are no issues around finance with us. My DH also does nearly all of the cooking, will hang out the washing and I take it in/put it away, does the bins and the garden whereas I do the general household cleaning and some of the cooking. If anything I feel like I need to do a bit more.

SimonJT

Curious to hear how this works in practice: conscious of bringing heterosexual baggage to this discussion: anecdotally I've got the impression gay cohabiting relationships tend to be far more equitable on this front.

But presumably you may get one person in a same sex relationship of either sex bringing more of the "man" assumptions and one more of the "woman" assumptions based on the way they saw their parents heterosexual relationship play out? I'm guessing most people in gay relationships are more attuned to the pitfalls than the average straight man, but must be some of those attitudes lurking latently...

How do you deal with that?

I think the best way to legally protect yourself is to get married first. If you don't want to marry, don't live together.

@SummerHeatwave

I think the best way to legally protect yourself is to get married first. If you don't want to marry, don't live together.

Are you suggesting getting married before you live together?

@thepeopleversuswork

Sparklfairy

"Is the only answer simply to never live with a man?"

Honestly? yes.

Cohabitation is way way over-rated and IMHO its only really the best option if you share children.

Otherwise it benefits men far more than women. They end up with sex on tap and a domestic servant who does way more than their share of labour.

For the woman its rarely worth it sex always goes off the boil eventually and you are left with resentment and a sense that you're having the piss taken. Cohabiting is the fastest passion killer.

I'm sure someone will be along to say "my Henry pulls his weight at home" and yes there are some that do. But precious few do.

I would never live with a man again.

sparkfairy you have made my day :) I've been so depressed recently thinking that even IF I met someone, I just couldn't face living with them. I love my own space, I don't mind being alone at all, but looking at old age alone could be very lonely. This would be the best of both worlds. Obviously I still have my kids at home, but eventually when they leave, I'm not dreading it, but I do worry about loneliness, but I don't want to share my house with a man ever again.

I mean, this was the norm just a generation or two ago. We've replaced one convention with another. People are slightly shocked that I didn't cohabit before marriage, in my parents' day the shock would have been if you did. Even just from this thread, it's clear the new convention is not universally satisfying or without pitfalls.

(sorry, that was to ShirleyPhallus)

melisande99

This is a really good point: cohabiting as an automatic part of a committed relationship has replaced marriage. Hence these people who trot out the "but he's not your partner, he's your boyfriend" comments. Cohabiting by default is the new marriage.

I'm not an advocate at all of getting married without living together: there's so much you need to know about someone before marrying them which you can only really find out by cohabiting. But I can see the logic: if you're married you at least have some legal and financial protection against cocklodgery.

I think people rush into cohabiting for all sorts of reasons: taking pride in a sense of "commitment", financial advantages, romantic nonsense, sex, convenience.

I think when it works really well and the couple are properly aligned about what they want, really committed to make it work as a team and negotiated it properly.

But its so uncommon. In so many situations you get two people who move in together and expect basically to transplant the routines from their parents' marriage into their new life.

But I've seen (and lived in) so many scenarios where a bloke who has been waited on by his mum (who has in turn also waited on his dad) ambiently walks into the relationship thinking this is how its going to be and the woman doesn't realise until its too late.

Not sure marriage would help this: if anything it perpetuates the stereotype. Better just for people to be a lot more careful about cohabiting in the first place.

@melisande99

I mean, this was the norm just a generation or two ago. We've replaced one convention with another. People are slightly shocked that I didn't cohabit before marriage, in my parents' day the shock would have been if you did. Even just from this thread, it's clear the new convention is not universally satisfying or without pitfalls.

In the 80s cohabiting was seen as a statement that you didn't want to get married and had no intention of doing so. I married in 1990 without cohabiting and plenty of people still did do it that way.

CounsellorTroi

It's fairly uncommon these days isn't it? To get married without living together first. It would raise a few eyebrows where I live...

I didn't officially live with my DH until we were married. He was initially with his parents (we met young) then he shared with friends. He gave me money towards food but it was my house, my bills. Our relationship wasn't any less serious for not moving in together. He stayed with me sometimes, I stayed with him and we had our own space. When we got married he moved in with me and paid half but we bought our own place soon afterwards for a fresh start together.

You buy something new together.

@melisande99

I mean, this was the norm just a generation or two ago. We've replaced one convention with another. People are slightly shocked that I didn't cohabit before marriage, in my parents' day the shock would have been if you did. Even just from this thread, it's clear the new convention is not universally satisfying or without pitfalls.

The “new” convention is only dissatisfying if both partners aren’t aligned with what their roles are. In my grandparent’s generation it was widely accepted that the man would go out to work and earn money while the woman would stay at home, do domestic duties and raise the children.

Very often on here it comes to light that men of that generation and one below still expect to be “looked after” by the woman who seems to still do things like male packed lunches and iron shirts, and actually ends up feeling completely demoralised and like an undervalued member of staff. This generation is more balanced in terms of women and men both working and so the inbalance comes when women are expected to work AND carry the domestic and mental load too

So for that reason, I think it would be terrible to marry before cohabiting. You need to know what you’re signing up for. A lifetime with a man child who has outdated views of what a woman should do? No thanks

Wow this is really depressing. I live with my husband because I love him, love spending time with him and living together is fantastic. I wouldn't really to live alone or with anyone else.

We split the work, we have each others backs, we are a team. I'm currently relaxing in a bubble bath whilst my husband does the nursery run. He got the kids up this morning whilst I slept in because the baby kept me up half the night.

I've done some laundry and cleaned the bathroom and he'll likely cook dinner tonight once we've both got the children in bed.

It must be awful to live with someone who doesn't treat your as an equal, but if it's not working out, then move out! Just check that your are domestically compatible before you have children...

I agree you need to know what kind of man you're getting yourself entangled with, and to be clear about your own expectations and boundaries. What seems really essential is to do this before having children, married or not (though as is often said on MN, marriage will usually benefit the mother).

I don't see many cohabitating women easily dumping their partner because he doesn't pull his weight - there's often the gravitational pull of habit, sunk emotional costs, and finances, even before children are involved.

Personally, I was happy assessing my intended's living habits and character from a distance, and talking lots about our expectations of domestic and family life. It's worked out well so far, quite a few years and a DC in.

I appreciate others' mileage may vary.

@ShirleyPhallus
Yes I am suggesting marriage before living together. Marriage is a considered commitment to each other, often with marriage preparation classes beforehand which can be a great foundation to life together - we talked about everything from domestic arrangements, in laws, finances, children etc etc in ours. 20 years married (without living together first) and very happy.

@thepeopleversuswork

SimonJT

Curious to hear how this works in practice: conscious of bringing heterosexual baggage to this discussion: anecdotally I've got the impression gay cohabiting relationships tend to be far more equitable on this front.

But presumably you may get one person in a same sex relationship of either sex bringing more of the "man" assumptions and one more of the "woman" assumptions based on the way they saw their parents heterosexual relationship play out? I'm guessing most people in gay relationships are more attuned to the pitfalls than the average straight man, but must be some of those attitudes lurking latently...

How do you deal with that?

When I think of our adoption support group (i’m aware this is pure anecdote) among the gay couples (male and female) no one works full time, one gay couple has one sahp and one part time worker, the rest are all part time workers. Where as the straight couples in the group either both work full time, or one works full time and one is a sahp (all mums at our group). In our group the share of chores, childcare etc does seem more equal in the gay couples, we have one straight parent who is left a list of jobs by her husband to complete each day, which is worrying.

An 11 year study in the states showed that gay mums spend on average 111 minutes per day focused on their child/ren, straight mums 99, gay dads 103 and straight dads 51 minutes. It was only a small sample, plus the gay dad is more likely to have adopted, so the child/ren are planned and it will have been hard work to become a parent. So that will obviously skew results. (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4466015/)

I live with my partner, now we do have a cleaner (which we pay for 50/50), so that skews things as it does reduce the burden. The chores we do do are generally shared fairly equally, I do a bit more, thats because I have a son so I do a more tidying of his toys etc than my partner. My partner also has a physical disability which has a profound impact on his ability to use his hands/arms, so generally he does the chores he can physically manage and I do the others.

I do all the cooking as he can’t physically do it unless its a ding meal that doesn’t weigh a lot or pancakes, but he does more of the laundry and dusting. He can’t take over many of my chores, but if he is unable to do his/some dusting/laundry needs doing I will do it rather than thinking “oh its his job”.

He grew up in boarding school and had a maid when he was at home so he never saw his parents doing chores, my dad did the cooking but my mum did everything else while they were still together. We also shared a flat with another family for quite a while and the mum in that family did everything.

I lived with an ex a few years ago and chores were generally shared 50/50 when he was home (he travelled a lot for work).

No ‘man’ or ‘woman’ assumptions have been part of any of my relationships so it isn’t something I have had to deal with.

That's interesting about the gay couples working part time. I do think it's a good set up to have both parents work part time and share domestic duties. I wonder if some men find the idea somewhat emasculating? Or if the traditional full time work somehow gets them out of domestic duties as they see themselves as the breadwinner?
My ex used to throw himself on the sofa when he got home and announce "I've been at work!" If I complained (I also worked full time and earned the same/more).