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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The MN manual of living together

102 replies

Sparklfairy · 19/10/2020 07:34

NB: I'm single and there's no man on the horizon looking to move in. But I have seen so many scenarios on MN where the man has moved in and taken the piss, or the other extreme, they have moved in and their choice is to leave is to become homeless.

As a layperson (that clearly no one wants to live with anyway!) What is the holy grail?

A) they move into your place, turn into a dick, don't pay anything, it's almost guaranteed they will become a cocklodger. I suppose you can kick them out. They have no comeback about bills etc. MN will tell you off for finding a cocklodger Grin

B) you move into his place. You can leave whenever you like and bills are his but he also has the power and you're walking into a homeless abyss. Worst case you could come home and he's locked you out!

C) 50/50 sounds sensible until he realises that you're liable for the bills he doesn't pay, which can get messy. You're sat they're paying his half while he eats your food and gets designer watches Grin

Is the only answer simply to never live with a man? Grin

Before some snide MNer comes on. My examples are actual quotes from actual threads, so no, I'm not "jealous" Grin

Seriously though, how do you move in and protect yourself? Yes ok most of your partners are thankfully not dicks, but we all know it can go pear shaped in a second.

OP posts:
Fannybawz · 19/10/2020 08:53

It really boils down to not becoming the domestic slave and pushing back firmly if you see it happening

S00LA · 19/10/2020 08:57

I think @thepeopleversuswork has a point.

@bigmugs and @MaskingForIt also give good advice.

I agree that many men think of cohabitating as a way of getting all the benefits of marriage with zero commitment on their behalf. Some even persuade a woman to Have their kids , give them his name and even give up their job To care for them so they can keep all their money and their single lifestyle.

Too many cohabiting women end up doing most of the housework “ because he earns more “. Well that’s a surprise - even doing the same job, women earn 13% less. And most men choose better paid jobs anyway.

And the woman has less free time because he has “ hobbies “ that are important to to him, whereas she prefers just to watch TV. Besides he is entitled to relax as his job is more demanding than hers. It’s always more demanding, whatever they do Hmm.

As a PP said, the sex often becomes poor or non existent very soon as so many men are porn addicts and RL doesn’t compete with the onscreen image and their right hand.

You can see the structural and socialised inequality in almost every post here on the relationships threads . Girlfriends who do all the caring for his children when they live with them. Fiancées who manage his mother And his ex wife and care for his granddad.

The only solution I can think of ( apart from never living with a man ) is to be constantly vigilant against the creep of wife work and an imbalance in emotional labour and housework . Oh and always letting him deal with his family.

Bubbletrouble43 · 19/10/2020 09:00

Yes tbh I don't think I would have lived with dp had I not had a burning urge to have children with him. I do love him but I had my own house all to myself and liked being in charge of everything. Being brutally honest I find it a bit of a pain living with a man sometimes ( his mess, consulting about decor, purchases etc) though I see it as the price for having kids and worth it overall.

thepeopleversuswork · 19/10/2020 09:03

actually living with another adult, unless you can find the rare unicorn who you click with in every way, is a drag

This. Living with other people is a massive PITA. Children, sex and the sense that it is "what people do" are the main drivers.

Relationships improve immeasurably when you can get away from someone.

There probably are rare scenarios where people are ideally domestically matched and all power to them, but for the vast majority of couples its about a compromise which eats away at your sense of self and freedom and ultimately destroys the love.

Whatisthisfuckery · 19/10/2020 09:05

It’s not just living with a man. Sharing your personal space with another woman is just as challenging.

HowFastIsTooFast · 19/10/2020 09:05

Well this is a bleak thread. Going against the grain, I love living with DP 🤷🏼‍♀️

lyralalala · 19/10/2020 09:07

I think the key is really brutally honest conversations before you move in. And brutal honesty about the little things - more often than not the big things sort themselves out it’s the laundry being on the basket rather than in it or an irritation over the ketchup living in fridge or cupboard that’s the final straw because the small irritations are every day.

We had to do that as we both had children so we had to make sure we were on exactly the same page otherwise we’d have children brought up different in the same house and we knew that wouldn’t work.

It was definitely helped by the fact that DH lived alone with DS at that time so he wasn’t one of those guys leaving his Mum’s house and expecting his partner to take her place (and definitely helped by the fact that PIL had a very equal relationship so DH and BIL were brought up expecting to do half the work in their house)

honeylulu · 19/10/2020 09:09

Finances: the fair way that has always seemed to work for us is a split proportionate to income.

Domestic chores: trickier. My parents had a traditional marriage and when I was a child I vowed never to get married as it seemed a really shit deal for the wife who seemed to be a slave to the man. Honestly I would have rather have lived alone than have this happen. Luckily my husband is great around the house - does all the laundry, hoovering, majority of the cooking, half the drop offs/pick ups for the kids. We have been together since I was 21 though, so I've never really had to "try out" anyone else. But his domestic approach was a big attraction point I must say.

I think it also helped that I had short maternity leaves (4 months and 5 months) and obviously I took on the lion's share of domestic duties while I was home, but it wasn't really long enough for him to get used to it before I returned to FT work. With our second H then took on the parental leave for 3 months. He was shocked how hard work it was and how much there was to think about.

I still maintain I worked have stayed single (or at least not cohabiting) rather than settled for less. It was incredibly important to me, more so than having children even. I appreciate I am not the norm though.

BeBraveAndBeKind · 19/10/2020 09:09

We have a good balance with him doing half the cooking, most of the laundry/dishwasher and cleaning/vacuuming while I do all household admin (he's dyslexic), DIY and garden. We split who shops for groceries. I've always earned more than he does so we split our contribution to household expenses proportionately.

We've been together for 25 years though and the first few years were very tricky. I wanted him to want to care about paint colours and furniture and the garden and he hust doesn't. He wants me to be tidier. It's taken a lot of trial and error and constant communication to reach a good balance for us and work to our strengths.

Having watched my mum run herself ragged for my abusive, alcoholic step-father, DH got told pretty early on that I wouldn't be putting up with any of that shit.

embaex · 19/10/2020 09:18

I love my own space and people find it really bizarre that I like it just me and my children. Rarely have anyone to the house either because I can't be bothered with entertaining anyone 😂 my children's father is currently 'absent' shall we say, and honestly it's never been quieter and I love the fact I can go about my life not worrying about getting in anyone's way.
Obviously some people love living with their partner/husband/even parents etc, I just don't 😂

WitchWife · 19/10/2020 09:19

As a PP said “be constantly vigilant against the creep of wife work”, read the book Wife Work if you haven’t. It helps me resist doing “nice” things for my partner that slide over into being overly responsible for him (eg buying a birthday card for him to give to his own mother).

In the early days constantly think “but would he do this for ME?” to make sure that you’re as in balance as possible.

Eyes out and ears open for ANY sign of sexism or hints that “men and women have different strengths”, he’ll definitely mean that yours is washing his socks and cleaning the loo.

Be open to a partner who is kind to you.

And yes rent together first if at all possible! Even my “perfect” DP had a few dodgy habits (like blindness to laundry) that only became apparent when we lived together. Luckily he is that rare thing, a person who’s willing to learn and change, and he makes up for it with other drudgery stuff.

WitchWife · 19/10/2020 09:28

overall my advice is “make the small stuff a big deal” and every woman should read this essay: www.laborhistorylinks.org/PDF%20Files/Politics%20of%20Housework.pdf

CarolVordermansBum · 19/10/2020 09:31

My partner of 6 years and I dont live together. I doubt we ever will. I love living alone, and there's no pressure on either of us to 'provide' for the other, and if we split up, neither of us will be up shit creek. Its great.

TheNinny · 19/10/2020 09:35

I should add....I've been living with my DH 5 yrs now. I love it and although I enjoyed living on own, it doesn't compare as I would often feel lonely. 1 DC, we both work full time and split housework equally. (DH) works longer hours so i guess i do a bit more but not much. And we take turn about cooking dinner.

I hadn't planned to live with him until at least engagement but a job loss hastened my move in to his house which he bought with my input and future family in mind. Proposal came 6 months later. Looking back it didnt help me financially to live seperately but co-habitating would likely prolonged getting married - always seems to in all of my friends. I'd always made it clear i wouldnt hang around forever before marriage (longer than 3 yrs and your just wasting my time, you know fairly soon if its for keeps) and definately no kids before it for me. So he knew my expectations.

My advice would be open and clear communication from the start about what you both want, and be prepared to follow through if not met. If goals arent the same long term then don't move in. Men that are of the 'wait n see how it goes' nature typically don't make good partners, in my experience at least.

VeniceQueen2004 · 19/10/2020 09:42

Now first and foremost, in our house my DP does the 'wifework' - I am scatty as fuck and have reasonably low standards for housework (I tend to think it will become apparent when things around the house need doing and will deal with it when it does), he is hyper-organised and has to plan everything in minute detail, so we have a distribution of labour where I do any jobs that actually involve talking to people (sorting cleaner, organising tradesmen, nursery and school issues, childcare, dr's appts etc) and he takes care of everything that involves organisation and planning e.g. laundry, dishwasher, home improvement project mgmt, financial planning etc. I also probably do a little more childcare than he does, again because of a difference in our perspective as to what's required (i.e. if DD calls out in the night I will go as he a. doesn't wake up and b. thinks she's old enough to sort herself out now at 3yo, and I get up with her in the mornings as he's useless to himself before he's had breakfast, coffee and a shower, and it's nicer for everybody for him to get those before he starts engaging with the rest of us :P).

My point is, he is not a baddun like you read about on MN - he has his flaws, I have mine, and by and large we work around them and function well enough. Nevertheless....

Having cohabited with my partner for about a decade now, and knowing many other women/mums of small kids who do the same, I think the optimum living arrangements for raising the human species is collectives of women and their children with men visiting from time to time Grin like elephants. I can't think of any woman I know with children and a male partner who doesn't spend an inordinate amount of time 'looking after' the other adult - be it the classic wife-work of housework and organisation or having to continuously deal with and work around their moods, obsessions, hobbies or sexual desires. Or both if you're really unlucky!

Men generally speaking (NAMALT!) just remain so resolutely themselves, so focussed on (and feel entitled to focus on!) what they want and need; parenthood doesn't transform them and they actually see no reason why it should. Whereas women with kids tend to understand inherently that the priority is and should be the needs of the small children, and everything else sort of goes into abeyance for a bit.

When you're childless and have time for the inevitable nonsense (arguments, sulking, making up), the joys of cohabiting are usually worth it - I remember a lot of spontaneous and frequent sex in unusual places, going out together, cooking together, sharing interests, decorating etc etc. But once kids enter the picture unless you are very well supported by a wider family/community network (of mostly women) maintaining a relationship with someone who is, in their own way, just as needy as your child can start feeling like just another job. Probably for both parties.

I'm aware there will be a billion happy parenting couples now saying how wrong I am; but I can't be the only one who'd love to spend day to day life living in a big house full of my mum mates and our kids for the next 10 years or so, and go on the odd sexy date with my DP, rather than spend so much of the time getting on each others' nerves and not quite seeing eye to eye on what's important. When we do manage to get childfree time I remember how lovely he is and why we got together, but when I'm constantly feeling pulled between his needs and toddler's needs, and feel like absolutely no-one is aware of or prioritising mine, it does breed frustration. But then he would say I have a tendency to martyrdom and should take responsibility for insisting on my own needs and wants (he includes in this taking a firmer/more hands off approach with our child than I'm happy doing; I'm not sure he would appreciate me doing the same with him!).

Covid does make it more difficult - he would sometimes go away for the weekend/work or whatever and I could purely focus on DD in the daytime, then when she was in bed I could do whatever I liked, i.e. lie in bed reading until 9pm then go to sleep instead of staying up trying to be amusing, I can listen to radio 4 all day long without him huffing about the naff radio dramas - basically what I would do if left to my own devices - and it acted as a really good release valve, for both of us I suspect. Being together literally ALL THE TIME (both wfh, can't go visit others) is testing the mettle of most cohabiting relationships at the moment I suspect. I think both of us are not quite happy, and both of us know it, but both of us are aware that at the bedrock there is a lot of love and appreciation there which is currently strained by circumstances, and it's worth holding out and making do until conditions are more favourable.

Ah I don't know. Me and my sister still sometimes joke that when our kids are grown up we'll move in together and be mad old ladies. I actually quite like the idea! Having said that when the kids are more independent I'll probably have the energy to put into my relationship with DP to keep it on the even keel it used to be on when we were childless.

What tht make me wonder is what it would be like if instead of doing that I just literally pleased myself, or even found someone who worked around my wants and ways the way I always have around his.

I wonder if it's me specifically or female conditioning that has made me always inclined to give way to/prioritise the other person/people in my life. I wonder what on earth life would be like if just saying "no that doesn't work for me, I want to do it this way" was something that came naturally to me, instead of always wondering what the other person is thinking/feeling and taking responsibility for that. I think it would be a very different sort of life.

InDubiousBattle · 19/10/2020 09:45

Howfast me too! We were young when we got together and still fairly young when we moved in together (21). I love living with him, he's the best person I've ever met.

thecatsthecats · 19/10/2020 09:58

As a PP said “be constantly vigilant against the creep of wife work”, read the book Wife Work if you haven’t. It helps me resist doing “nice” things for my partner that slide over into being overly responsible for him (eg buying a birthday card for him to give to his own mother).

I find the opposite.

I do the bare minimum of housework as fast as I can. My husband does jobs very thoroughly but has less time, so bunches them up for the weekend.

We're responsible for each of our families - which is very much the case of my family drawing the short straw.

And it was about two months into lockdown with the cleaner being off that I realised that the bins weren't doing themselves.

I think I've come to the female gender by mistake some days. I seem to have skipped all the female socialisation people talk about anyway.

(and it's my husband who reads books about gender equality Blush)

I agree with what a PP said - just don't cohabit unless it's someone you're happy with.

RaisinGhost · 19/10/2020 10:26

Living alone is a great choice yes. But you've rather exaggerated the problems of living together and it not working out. "You'd be homeless" - not really. You or him or both of you would just get another place. Decide "hmm this isn't working out". Hop on right move or gumtree/Facebook and find a rental or a house share.

OK yes, unfortunately some people are in a situation, eg, escaping abuse, where they have no money, or exdp steals all the money and locks the doors, and they have no friends or family, and the council can't help them.

But your bod standard "just not working out" relationship ending isn't so dramatic. Moving is a thing.

VinylDetective · 19/10/2020 10:31

I completely agree that cohabitation is over rated. If my 20 year marriage came to an end I’d never do it again. Helena Bonham Carter and Tim Burton had the right idea, they lived in adjoining houses.

RaisinGhost · 19/10/2020 10:34

Living with a partner has its problems but so does every way of living.

Alone - lonely, expensive, boring.

In a relationship but living apart - time spent travelling around, expensive, dp not there when you want them and hangs around like a bad smell when you don't.

With friends - won't be friends for much longer!

In an all female collective - the most unrealistic. People seem to imagine this as a big house where they and their kids are the centre of everything, and living with sisters/friends who dote on the kids and do childcare. Err no, they'd all have kids too. A house of just three women could have 5-10 kids living there! No thanks!

thepeopleversuswork · 19/10/2020 10:37

VeniceQueen2004

"Having cohabited with my partner for about a decade now, and knowing many other women/mums of small kids who do the same, I think the optimum living arrangements for raising the human species is collectives of women and their children with men visiting from time to time grin like elephants. I can't think of any woman I know with children and a male partner who doesn't spend an inordinate amount of time 'looking after' the other adult - be it the classic wife-work of housework and organisation or having to continuously deal with and work around their moods, obsessions, hobbies or sexual desires. Or both if you're really unlucky!"

Hear hear. If I had my way society would be reorganised along those lines: women and children only collectives with men visiting (and then buggering off afterwards). I'm only half joking.

Not going to be a popular view here but I think the optimal situation for children from the perspective of their happiness and development is to be raised by a financially solvent single mother. I know in theory children do better in a two-parent household but I think that is skewed by the fact that two parent households tend to be wealthier. If you take that out of the mix I think you'd get radically different perspectives.

I really struggle to see - other than more money -- what men bring to the household mix to make it better. They just get in the way, make everything about them and their needs, create more work and make women and children thoroughly irritated and resentful.

BrightYellowDaffodil · 19/10/2020 11:58

I think the true answer is make sure you know the person well before you move in together and make sure you have had an honest discussion about expectations before you do (including bills, housework standards/how to share, cooking etc).

I'd agree but it doesn't always work out even if you've done these things. Ex and I had this discussion, agreed to split housework 50/50 and bills likewise - we totted everything up and made sure that each of us paid the bills in a way that everything was split fairly, including contributions to our one car. However, things change over time - the rent (which he paid) stayed the same but utilities went up. He was most resistant to 'renegotiating' - surprise surprise - and always had a reason why it wasn't fair he should pay a bit more and the same went for household tasks. "You drive the car more than I do", "A higher proportion of clothes in the laundry basket are yours", "I shouldn't have to do so much washing up because you used an extra pan to make lunch when you were WFH". And so on and so forth... (You will note there's a good reason why he's an ex!)

So you can start out with all good intentions and still find that it all goes to pot over time, I'm afraid.

I actually much prefer living alone and if I met someone I'd probably want to still live separately. However, if I met someone that I wanted to live with I'd still hang on to my house so that I always had somewhere to go back to. I've been house-less after the breakdown of a relationship and it sucks. It's bad enough ending a relationship but it's at least something if you have a bolthole to go to that's yours.

Honestly, I think the only way you can live with another person is if you’ve always done it.

I'd always done it and I still prefer living alone!

SecretSpAD · 19/10/2020 12:04

*"Is the only answer simply to never live with a man?"

Honestly? yes.

Cohabitation is way way over-rated and IMHO its only really the best option if you share children.*

Ahh, but then in the MN Handbook of Relationships you aren't a proper couple and you're definitely not allowed to refer to your other half as a partner.

CounsellorTroi · 19/10/2020 12:08

It’s not a popular opinion but the thing about marriage prior to cohabitation, which is how DH and I did it 30 years ago, is that you’ve committed yourselves to making it work before you start, rather than deciding to move in together and seeing how things go.

Sparklfairy · 19/10/2020 12:09

@ShirleyPhallus

You discuss things in advance, including what happens if you split up, agree a fair split of rent / bills and go from there.

Bonus points if you’re financially independent before you start living with said man and have some savings in case you need to move out.

Obviously what you want is everything to work out.

My post was, what if it doesn't? What's the best scenario?

OP posts: