The MN manual of living together

[Sparklfairy]

NB: I'm single and there's no man on the horizon looking to move in. But I have seen so many scenarios on MN where the man has moved in and taken the piss, or the other extreme, they have moved in and their choice is to leave is to become homeless.

As a layperson (that clearly no one wants to live with anyway!) What is the holy grail?

A) they move into your place, turn into a dick, don't pay anything, it's almost guaranteed they will become a cocklodger. I suppose you can kick them out. They have no comeback about bills etc. MN will tell you off for finding a cocklodger

B) you move into his place. You can leave whenever you like and bills are his but he also has the power and you're walking into a homeless abyss. Worst case you could come home and he's locked you out!

C) 50/50 sounds sensible until he realises that you're liable for the bills he doesn't pay, which can get messy. You're sat they're paying his half while he eats your food and gets designer watches

Is the only answer simply to never live with a man?

Before some snide MNer comes on. My examples are actual quotes from actual threads, so no, I'm not "jealous"

Seriously though, how do you move in and protect yourself? Yes ok most of your partners are thankfully not dicks, but we all know it can go pear shaped in a second.

@SecretSpAD

*"Is the only answer simply to never live with a man?"

Honestly? yes.

Cohabitation is way way over-rated and IMHO its only really the best option if you share children.*

Ahh, but then in the MN Handbook of Relationships you aren't a proper couple and you're definitely not allowed to refer to your other half as a partner.

That notion that you're not a proper couple unless you live together is utter bollocks.

A desperate last gasp from the 1950s with a veneer of 21st century.

I really struggle to see - other than more money -- what men bring to the household mix to make it better.

I think the optimum living arrangements for raising the human species is collectives of women and their children with men visiting from time to time

Lots of men must be hell to live with. My dh, as well as being a great co-parent, tidier than me, more hard-working than me, earning more than me and being an excellent cook and diy-er.... is better company and has more interests in common with me than any female friend I have. He certainly doesn't require any looking after either. I most certainly wouldn't want to swap him for a collective of women, thanks. I'd much rather live alone than do that tbh.

Fascinating thread. I’ve got very little to add except I loved hanging out in the same house with xh until we had dc. Then home life felt like one big chore and after a while he left (cheers mate)

If I thought I’d never have another relationship I’d definitely move in with other women. But as it is I’m still in love with the romantic dream.

One thing that I think lockdown had thrown into sharp relief is that it is detrimental to be deprived of social contact.

It's incredibly unusual throughout history for humans to live alone. Human and ape species almost entirely live in mixed sex social groups. We AREN'T elephants.

What I think is definitely a bit broken is the old tendency of extended families living in close range. There was a bit of a network of wfh parents where I lived rurally and you could generally depend on the fact that some adult or older child would have an eye on your offspring.

The old "it takes a village" approach.

Sparklfairy

To answer your question there's no way to guarantee that everything will work out. You can do all the budgeting and "open communication" and discussion about a fair split of rent and bills as you like and they can still turn out to be a lazy manchild.

Only things you can do really are:

a) don't move in too soon and certainly not until you've got a good sense of his character and his perspective on ideas about equality in relationships -- being ruthless about red flags if you spot any.
b) have your own property and a job and make absolutely sure you can move out if you need to.
c) introduce him as early as possible and well before you move in together to the idea that you are not his domestic servant and that he has to pull his weight in the home. The moment when you first ask someone to do the washing up in your home is always a very telling one. You can usually tell within a matter of seconds whether he views this as a natural and entirely reasonable request or whether he thinks you're going to be a bit of a handful and then finds an excuse to go back to whatever he was doing. If you get any pushback or delay during the "honeymoon" period you can be fairly sure it won't improve once he's got his feet under the desk, so to speak.

lazylinguist

Congrats, it sounds like you've hit the jackpot.

I can assure you most of them aren't like that.

What a bizarre thread... So full of extreme opinions based on personal anecdotes.

It's a bit as if someone said "never ever work for an employer, they will always find a way to exploit you", or "never ever employ anybody, they will always find a way to not do their share"
... It's bollocks, no?

In my experience, if both partners are educated professionals, the abusovr dynamics described in this thread are very unlikely to survive long, as both will be experienced at negotiating mutually beneficial partnerships (and not shy of discussing the financial aspects upfront)

In other words, before cohabiting... make sure you have some managerial (and/or negotiating) experience, and you'll be just fine!

I really struggle to see - other than more money -- what men bring to the household mix to make it better. They just get in the way, make everything about them and their needs, create more work and make women and children thoroughly irritated and resentful.

I think that only happens in households where it's accepted and even encouraged.

The wives of DH's colleagues are often shocked by how much I "make" him do (I actually don't make him do anything - he just believes he's responsible for half the work in our house). They're part of the problem bcause they are teaching their kids that Dad working long hours mean Mum does everything.

Then again I got slated on here before for being a SAHM who still expects her DH to chip in to the housework and childwork.

@Kaiserin

What a bizarre thread... So full of extreme opinions based on personal anecdotes.

It's a bit as if someone said "never ever work for an employer, they will always find a way to exploit you", or "never ever employ anybody, they will always find a way to not do their share"
... It's bollocks, no?

In my experience, if both partners are educated professionals, the abusovr dynamics described in this thread are very unlikely to survive long, as both will be experienced at negotiating mutually beneficial partnerships (and not shy of discussing the financial aspects upfront)

In other words, before cohabiting... make sure you have some managerial (and/or negotiating) experience, and you'll be just fine!

well, the analogy with work doesn't really hold up, though, because you get paid by your employer. They may make unreasonable demands but the bottom line is you will still get money for it.

You won't get money for being chief cook and bottle-washer, sock washer, parents night arranger and sender of birthday cards to his mum.

Also your comment rather assumes that the only people qualified to manage cohabitation are nice middle class people with degrees and white collar professions which is a little bit dismissive.

It’s not just dismissive, it’s patronising in the extreme.

They're part of the problem bcause they are teaching their kids that Dad working long hours mean Mum does everything

Following that logic, aren’t you part of the problem by teaching your kids that Dad earns all the money while Mum stays at home?

Obviously what you want is everything to work out. My post was, what if it doesn't? What's the best scenario?

The best scenario and most usual scenario is that you move out and move on with life. Moving is a thing. You need not be homeless.

@lazylinguist

I really struggle to see - other than more money -- what men bring to the household mix to make it better.

I think the optimum living arrangements for raising the human species is collectives of women and their children with men visiting from time to time

Lots of men must be hell to live with. My dh, as well as being a great co-parent, tidier than me, more hard-working than me, earning more than me and being an excellent cook and diy-er.... is better company and has more interests in common with me than any female friend I have. He certainly doesn't require any looking after either. I most certainly wouldn't want to swap him for a collective of women, thanks. I'd much rather live alone than do that tbh.

@lazylinguist he sounds wonderful. My H is like this too and it’s lovely.

Obviously what you want is everything to work out. My post was, what if it doesn't? What's the best scenario?

@Sparklfairy if it doesn’t you move out and use your aforementioned financial independence to live elsewhere.

Ideally move into a place you have bought or rented together. I wouldn't be keen on moving into somebody else's house or even worse let them move into mine. Perhaps on a very temporary basis and that could easily become permanent. Too many horror stories on MN.

I am much happier married than I ever was when I was single and living on my own!

Do your research. Really listen to him and watch his behaviour. He will tell you who he is from the start. The warning signs were there from the beginning with my previous two boyfriends. I didn't settle and waited for the right one.

@thepeopleversuswork

VeniceQueen2004

"Having cohabited with my partner for about a decade now, and knowing many other women/mums of small kids who do the same, I think the optimum living arrangements for raising the human species is collectives of women and their children with men visiting from time to time grin like elephants. I can't think of any woman I know with children and a male partner who doesn't spend an inordinate amount of time 'looking after' the other adult - be it the classic wife-work of housework and organisation or having to continuously deal with and work around their moods, obsessions, hobbies or sexual desires. Or both if you're really unlucky!"

Hear hear. If I had my way society would be reorganised along those lines: women and children only collectives with men visiting (and then buggering off afterwards). I'm only half joking.

Not going to be a popular view here but I think the optimal situation for children from the perspective of their happiness and development is to be raised by a financially solvent single mother. I know in theory children do better in a two-parent household but I think that is skewed by the fact that two parent households tend to be wealthier. If you take that out of the mix I think you'd get radically different perspectives.

I really struggle to see - other than more money -- what men bring to the household mix to make it better. They just get in the way, make everything about them and their needs, create more work and make women and children thoroughly irritated and resentful.

Speaking as a financially solvent single mother i would say that the only problem is that everything has to be done consecutively when you're on your own - there's never enough of you to go around. Love not living with a man now though. I think if I had a bigger place an au pair would probably solve the remaining issues.

lazylinguist Congrats, it sounds like you've hit the jackpot. I can assure you most of them aren't like that.

He's not some kind of saint, and he undoubtedly has a few traits that would piss some women off mightily. But none of them happen to be cocklodger/misogynist/manchild/lazy arse traits, unlike a shocking number of men, going by what I've read on the Relationships board.

OhamIreally

"Speaking as a financially solvent single mother i would say that the only problem is that everything has to be done consecutively when you're on your own - there's never enough of you to go around.
Love not living with a man now though."

That's undeniable. There's never enough time to get everything done and its utterly exhausting.

But I've yet to meet a man who can actually help with the workload as opposed to adding to it.

Don’t.
Alternate visits.
No sleep overs.

Don’t clear a space for their junk, keep it all at their own abode.

That's undeniable. There's never enough time to get everything done and its utterly exhausting. But I've yet to meet a man who can actually help with the workload as opposed to adding to it.

Really? Do you mean not one man out of any of the couples you know? Or just that you haven't met one of your own? I don't think I have any couple friends where the man adds to the workload. I'm not denying it happens a lot, but by no means all couples are like that.

@VinylDetective

It’s not just dismissive, it’s patronising in the extreme.

They're part of the problem bcause they are teaching their kids that Dad working long hours mean Mum does everything

Following that logic, aren’t you part of the problem by teaching your kids that Dad earns all the money while Mum stays at home?

No, I’m teaching them that if you have a disabled child one person has to stay home with them because there are fuck all services available to help because they’ve been slashed to the bone.

However, they are being taught that if one parent is at home all day with a child or children that is work. Many SAHP’s fall into the trap of doing everything because childcare is not classed as work by so many.

He's not some kind of saint, and he undoubtedly has a few traits that would piss some women off mightily. But none of them happen to be cocklodger/misogynist/manchild/lazy arse traits, unlike a shocking number of men, going by what I've read on the Relationships board.

Yes that's my DH too.

He's not some kind of saint, and he undoubtedly has a few traits that would piss some women off mightily. But none of them happen to be cocklodger/misogynist/manchild/lazy arse traits, unlike a shocking number of men, going by what I've read on the Relationships board.

That sums up DH. No-one is perfect. He annoys me sometimes, I annoy him sometimes, but neither take advantage or take the piss out of the other.

Meet a good guy! Dp pays most the bills, I pay council tax and buy the food, we both pay for own vehicles. He pays mortgage currently as owns the house but as soon as I get my divorce settlement I can pay off the mortgage and we are switching to 50/50 tenants in common. Choose your dp wisely is all I can say

lazylinguist

I'm sure there are men who to a greater or lesser degree pull their weight on the home front. I even know some.

But for two people to be really efficient cohabiting they have to really be quite a tight team. It pretty much has to either be 50/50 or you have to have the old-fashioned version where one person is breadwinner and the other one does the domestic work.

I've just seen so many relationships where the man does a bit of domestic work but not nearly enough to actually take the burden off the woman.