To think that this is unacceptable in this day and age

[nighttrains]

• An estimated 14.3 million people are in poverty in the UK
• 8.3 million are working-age adults, 4.6 million are children, and 1.3 million are of pension age
• Around 22% of people are in poverty, and 34% of children are
• Just under half (49%) of those in poverty are in “persistent povertyy_” (people who would also have fallen below the poverty line in at least two of the last three years). This is as of 2016/17

This is from fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/

It's appalling for a so called civilised country

@Marisishidinginmyattic

I wonder if your mum ever went hungry whilst she was busy making sure you had your school trips

I wonder how some families are surviving. Especially with housing.

@Ddot why the nasty sarcasm for people who choose to work hard to try and improve their lives?

Benefits are shit and anyone who dresses it up as a lovely simple life where someone scrimps and saves and has fun doing it is absolutely delusional

Exactly! Because they should be an emergency resource not a lifestyle choice.

they should be an emergency resource not a lifestyle choice

Lots of people on benefits work. Many factors go in to why someone who is working has to rely on benefits.

Look and NMW and inflated house prices and rent increases. It's not easy for anyone.

I would much rather government funding for parenting classes, mental health support ( so that people with anxiety/depression quickly go back to work and being able to parent) learning to cook and budget. The problem is I'd you don't engender a culture of personal responsibility then why would anyone bother to change?

We used to have that. It was called Sure Start. It was one of the first casualties of austerity, axed by a government that claimed to be all about personal responsibility.

@Marisishidinginmyattic of course it was tough for my mother even when things were much simpler. When at school, we weren't required to have laptops for learning, internet at home or mobile phones that are extra costs. I remember my mum only having one lipstick which she would use as a blusher, lipstick and eyeshadow if she wanted to make herself look 'glamorous'. She deprived herself but never us. It wasn't easy back then and it's harder now with increased living costs however, having nails done is £30+ each time, lashes done in London is £40+ and designer outfits is standard and choosing these outgoings instead of a monthly shopping to feed your family isn't exactly a smart option nor would it make you 'poor'. I'm no way judging as me and DH work full time and have professions and we struggle especially when unexpected expenses arise so I can only imagine how that will bring a household on benefits down on its knees when this happens.

Coming from an actual poor country...the UK doesn't have real poverty, the way I see it. I went to school with lots of kids from a "deprived" catchment area...well they had a better standard of living than my parents (academics) and I had in my home country.

Maybe a minority of people here are truly poor, but usually there's an underlying problem like addiction, and even if you gave those people loads of money it wouldn't improve the situation.

The main problem I see is apathy, no desire to better oneself and the expectation that the government/council/someone else will sort everything out for you. Which for the most part they do, so why would anyone bother.

Mrs drudge sorry if that sounded like it was for normal hard working person it wasnt. I think if you work hard you should be compensated. My comment was for those who think that the working class have got too uppatty. I personally cant understand it when someone makes good then treats staff like poo. You would think if you've been there you would share the wealth

I agree - It is unacceptable in this day and age.

Unfortunately, people voted for a government committed to a policy of austerity that hit the very poorest the most and adversely affected all but the very comfortably off.

@PamDemic I've never come across anyone who can't afford food in this country through not being paid enough in either wages or benefits. There are people who can't budget or spend their money on drugs/alcohol/cigarettes/branded clothes and then don't have enough to buy food. That isn't the same as not being able to afford food.

Also, how is it that people like my parents - immigrants who came with not much more than the clothes on their backs and started out renting one room can make a nice life for themselves, despite the difficulties of starting from scratch and facing racial prejudice...but people born here with all the advantages of being born in a first world country claim that everything's so bad and the system is agains them etc.
When we came (early 00s so not so long ago) my mum was amazed at how much the state helps people and wondered how the government isn't bankrupt from how much they spend on benefits. You don't get that kind of help in many parts of the world. It's then up to you what you do with the resources available to you.

@peanutbutterfries

It wasn't easy back then and it's harder now with increased living costs however, having nails done is £30+ each time, lashes done in London is £40+ and designer outfits is standard and choosing these outgoings instead of a monthly shopping to feed your family isn't exactly a smart option nor would it make you 'poor'.

Do you honestly think everyone on benefits is doing this? Or that anyone receives enough to be doing that without fudging numbers or getting money elsewhere?

When I was on benefits I had holes in my shoes and would dread rainy days because they'd leak. I couldn't replace them let alone buy eyelashes and designer outfits. I used to live in fear that the washing machine would break or the fridge because I couldn't save anything for emergencies.

I wish people would have a fucking honest discussion about benefits and how hard they are to live off without parading the one person they know who buys all sorts (aka the people who get extra money from elsewhere) or the stereotypical "I know this one family who are rolling in it on benefits...". Let's talk about how some people have barely any money after bills to buy food and clothes. Or how they can't get out of the unemployment rut because the jobs just aren't there. How they can't even get yellow stickered reduced food because the bus to the supermarket costs £5 return and they can't walk because their shoes are falling apart and they have to ration how often they use them because they can't save enough to buy more.

It's much more fun though to focus on the people who are apparently rich on benefits though, isn't it? I could trot out a family that live near me. On paper they are on benefits but live a surprisingly comfortable life. Does this means benefits are too generous? No. In reality, they deal drugs and that's where the money comes from.

Stop using the outliers as examples as to how benefits doesn't mean poverty. Look at the people struggling day to day and have an honest discussion.

But it's mumsnet... so nope! Not possible!

The definition/relativity of the term 'poverty' can be debated all day. The fact remains that we have an increasing number of people (many of them working people) who need to access foodbanks to feed their families. This is not about people with drug problems not prioritising food, or people who can't be bothered working. It's about people working hard in low paid jobs with increasingly high costs of accommodation/heating etc. As a pp has said- it's expensive to be poor (no spare cash to buy in bulk and batch cook, no big freezer to save batch cooking, old and inefficient heating etc, no car to get to cheaper out of town shops, constant repairs to old equipment etc)

We have the crazy situation where a footballer is (deservedly) honoured by the Queen for forcing a Government u-turn over food vouchers for children. If the head of state is acknowledging that he did a great thing by bringing the issue to the top of the agenda what does that say about a Government that has for years ignored pleas from teachers/social workers etc about the same thing? Or one that can't see that the current crisis has hit those on low incomes harder than Eton educated politicians?

defining poverty by reference to the mean means there will always be poverty

Poverty is defined relative to the median rather than the mean, to avoid the problem you and others think exists. It is possible to take everyone out of poverty without changing the median income.

When I've looked at it, the minimum wage and the level of benefits have been pretty close to the levels needed to eliminate poverty, so I'm not entirely sure why the figures are as high as they are. I suspect there are a lot of people who are only just below the line, so in that sense things are not as bad as overall numbers make them look.

There are some absolute monsters on this thread, so convinced of their own beliefs about the undeserving poor that to attemp to argue with them would make no difference at all. Wait until your heart's desire Brexit rolls around. If you can't see poverty now, you will surely see it then. It might, unthinkably, come to your own doorstep.

@Marisishidinginmyattic is there anything on my post suggesting that being on benefits = rich? Time after time I have underlined, its not easy being on benefits especially in this day and age. It was hard back in my time and it's harder now due to increased living costs. I have never looked down on people on benefits as my mother was on it when I was younger. Being on benefits is a safety net when things go down south and that safety net has holes in it. The weekly allowance you get as a adult wouldn't even cover someone who smokes. I'm not deluded nor am I living in utopia. I haven't criticised anyone trying to make ends meet or the sacrifices they make trying to keep on top of things. I gave a small example of 'some' people's poor lifestyle choices and how 'some' people chose to opt for a certain lifestyle than keep a roof over their head and food on the table. I.e spending their housing benefits on holidays or using their benefits to finance their lifestyle. It's heartbreaking to see security tags on formula in local supermarket which means it's a popular item that gets shoplifted. It's heartbreaking to see female students having no access to sanitary products, it's heartbreaking to see kids that only have school meals but not having food when they get home or on weekends/school holidays when they are away from school. Don't get worked up on my post because I am on the same page as you.

It’s (fortunately) not a race to the bottom @ComfortablyNumb89. We wouldn’t have foodbanks if everyone could feed their family. And not because they prioritise other things. Frankly, I’m appalled people still think like this.

@PamDemic Not bigoted, I see it with my own eyes in my city. The people you work with aren't likely to admit to it and unless you shadow them 24/7 you won't know where their money actually goes.
A teacher further down the thread described seeing a similar thing with her pupils' parents too. So clearly I'm not making this up.

@peanutbutterfries

We aren’t on the same page at all. You choose to focus on the few who spend their benefits on luxuries and that lifestyle choice and the resulting financial situation they are in which just adds to the stereotype of people on benefits. You could concentrate on the people who spend their benefits on essentials and still can’t afford the basics and live in fear of something breaking or their children needing new clothes instead. If girls needing sanitary towels are so heartbreaking to you, why not post about the fact that happens to people where the parents aren’t misspending the pittance they get. That’s happening to families where there are no eyelashes and designer clothes being bought and families where the housing benefit goes on rent and not holidays.

Like I said, people on here can never just discuss the people who are genuinely struggling. They have to trot out the “small example” of “some” people instead or this family they know or that family etc which just adds to the stereotypes that people on benefits face.

I agree we are lucky to get help when life kicks your feet from under you. I am appalled by the limitations of benefits, my neighbour had a stroke and couldn't work full time but couldn't get anything. She ended up renting her house out and moving in with her parents. Harsh

What's classed as the average income for a working single parent family in poverty?

@CherryCocktails

Thats a bit of a meaningless question really
An average can look quite high or generous, but by definition there will be many people below the average and some above.