To think that this is unacceptable in this day and age

[nighttrains]

• An estimated 14.3 million people are in poverty in the UK
• 8.3 million are working-age adults, 4.6 million are children, and 1.3 million are of pension age
• Around 22% of people are in poverty, and 34% of children are
• Just under half (49%) of those in poverty are in “persistent povertyy_” (people who would also have fallen below the poverty line in at least two of the last three years). This is as of 2016/17

This is from fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/

It's appalling for a so called civilised country

There must surely be an average though if they are going to put a certain percentage as a statistic?

[quote ComfortablyNumb89]@PamDemic Not bigoted, I see it with my own eyes in my city. The people you work with aren't likely to admit to it and unless you shadow them 24/7 you won't know where their money actually goes.
A teacher further down the thread described seeing a similar thing with her pupils' parents too. So clearly I'm not making this up. [/quote]
How can you see it with your own eyes unless, as you suggest, you shadow people 24/7? It’s dated, bigoted nonsense.

@VinylDetective No I don't shadow anyone but drive through any "deprived" council estate in my city and you'll see new-ish cars in the driveways and big TVs in people's living rooms. Every Christmas the same mums that complain about having no money for food post photos of the huge stack of presents they've bought their kids.
I grew up in a country with actual slums and people who literally had nothing to their name and were stick thin because they actually had no money for food.
British people are not poor.

Chinny reckon...?

I have nice clothes but 90% are from charity shop. I can sew which means I can alter. I can cook not fabulous but I make a mean soup and know about nutrition. I work but dont earn alot. I think we need to bring cooking and sewing back to schools. I've worked with people who can't sew a button on or make a stew. It's not good if you end up in a bad situation and cant do basic stuff. Life skills give you confidence

@Gancanny 😂😂😂

It can be selective spending in some cases imo like others have said

@VinylDetective Why are you appalled? You must live a sheltered life if you're not aware some people prioritise buying drugs and alcohol over feeding their kids. Sad but true. But it's not fashionable these days to suggest that people should take responsibility for their lives.

[quote oncloudnine]@VinylDetective Why are you appalled? You must live a sheltered life if you're not aware some people prioritise buying drugs and alcohol over feeding their kids. Sad but true. But it's not fashionable these days to suggest that people should take responsibility for their lives. [/quote]
Mixed me up with someone else. I haven’t said I’m appalled - although I am. It makes my blood boil to see this kind of bigoted, sanctimonious nonsense.

Someone drives through a council estate, sees decent cars and big TVs and makes a gigantic leap to assume their owners are on benefits. You don’t have be a benefit claimant to live on a council estate, in fact most of those houses are probably privately owned now.

I thought the idea of the deserving poor had died with Victoria

@ComfortablyNumb89

notwithstanding housing conditions in other countries, is it acceptable that we have people living in these conditions in the UK. I’d call this a slum
www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/13/trapped-britain-new-slums-poverty-austerity-social-housing

@VinylDetective Ah right, sorry, can't read properly tonight.
To be fair I don't think that poster said everyone on a council estate was on benefits, just that they weren't poor. Poverty is such a relative concept though. I do think the 22% quoted in the OP doesn't sound right, unless the definition of "poor" is a very generous one.

Look we all know some people dont care about their kids. Single mother selling childs coat to fund drugs but you can't tar everyone who uses the benefits system with the same brush. It's there to help when things go wrong. It could happen to any of us, we all think we are secure. Just think if you lost your partner or you divorced or you, your partner or child got ill. Could you manage. Scary init

A stark reminder for everyone who believes poverty/ benefits will never happen to them:

We were a family with a 65k income, we both worked. Have a lovely 3 bed home with a mortgage. Then covid-19 happened, we were both put on furlough. And will be unemployed by the end of the month.

We have been looking for work in the last 6 weeks... but there are not many jobs around that are suitable... think shift work on min wage - It's only possible if one works school hours. Plus we are overqualified- that's feedback from interviews we have had... in other words we don't make the cut for more manual work!
Now we are facing a life on benefits, we will get the absolute minimum due to some qualifying savings (thats fair), and no housing element due to mortgage (not so great as we will eventually be homeless if things don't change).
We never thought we would be in this position. But here we are. This can happen to anyone and in the current climate, its difficult to pick yourself up.

@Sinuhe

A stark reminder for everyone who believes poverty/ benefits will never happen to them:

We were a family with a 65k income, we both worked. Have a lovely 3 bed home with a mortgage. Then covid-19 happened, we were both put on furlough. And will be unemployed by the end of the month.

We have been looking for work in the last 6 weeks... but there are not many jobs around that are suitable... think shift work on min wage - It's only possible if one works school hours. Plus we are overqualified- that's feedback from interviews we have had... in other words we don't make the cut for more manual work!
Now we are facing a life on benefits, we will get the absolute minimum due to some qualifying savings (thats fair), and no housing element due to mortgage (not so great as we will eventually be homeless if things don't change).
We never thought we would be in this position. But here we are. This can happen to anyone and in the current climate, its difficult to pick yourself up.

Sorry to read what you are facing. On Universal credit if one of you can just find some hours doing anything hopefully you will be a lot better off because you can earn £512 without your Uc being affected ( assuming you have children). Good luck with the job hunting, it's hard out there at the moment.

The point about deserving vs undeserving poor is that actually some people are perhaps 'undeserving', but it's everyone else - the deserving who suffer.

Some people aren't nice and don't behave decently. All walks of life, all societies around the world.

When it comes to benefits stereotypes, most drug addicts or other 'difficult' benefit recipients actually need mental health support (but 'care' in the community is sorely lacking).

As for the minority who are 'bad' or undeserving? Keep on cutting benefits and they'll simply keep on earning money through crime. Drug dealing, burglary, etc.

UBI is a better option because really would you want to work with or employ the minority of truly 'undeserving' types?

Better to give them a basic subsistence amount - and then focus on supporting re education and employment opportunities the vast majority of deserving benefit recipients.

The majority are decent people who've had bad luck - redundancy, bad start in life, or illness deserve and need a safety net. This has slowly disappeared over the last couple of decades.

We need UBI and mass council housing.

We're already on page 10 and nobody has yet proposed what they think should be done to eliminate poverty

Page 7.

Some posters keep blaming Johnson, the Tories, or alternatively, ourselves for voting them in. But why is it Boris Johnson's fault anyone is poor?

Because he represents the Conservative government who have pursued policies of austerity that have been directly linked to the increase in relative poverty, increase in food bank use, and implicated in 120,000 excess deaths?

I remember when feckless Corbyn used to have a go at Theresa May for poverty existing.

"But Jeremy Corbyn!" is the political equivalent of my three year old telling me "look over there!" while she blatantly drops her broccoli into the bin and congratulates herself for being so clever. Its a shitty, weak deflection tactic that fools no one. "But Corbyn!" is irrelevant when Labour have not been in government since 2010 and Corbyn isn't even the Labour leader now.

@StamfordHill
How about making companies like Starbucks and Amazon pay corporation tax rather than claiming that they don't make a profit.
Or perhaps the government could close the tax loopholes that allow rich people to pay less tax than people on NMW.
Also if the NMW was actually a living wage so that people don't need to have their wages topped up by the government that would cut the benefits bill even if they paid more to people who can't work.
Oh yeah if they stopped assessing people with life long conditions every 1-2 years and if they used trained medical professionals instead of atos who regularly lie (just look at the increase in successful court appeals since they took over) all of this the government pay for including all stages of the appeal process and then have to back pay the claimants.
If our government did any of my suggestions I'm sure they could afford to put money into education and mental health treatment which in the long run would lift so many people out of poverty and into work thus further cutting the benefits bill.

@Babyroobs - thank you for your kind words. We have looked at all scenarios. And we will take up any employment that is offered. It's difficult, there are just not enough jobs around... We have been lucky enough to get some interviews between us... So there is some hope.

Absolute poverty and relative poverty are different as has been explained in numerous posts above and the concept of a ‘normal life’ is relative to context and ultimately a matter of opinion influenced by life experiences. In a situation of mass unemployment the level of benefits needed is different because there aren’t jobs to get. Previously before Covid, benefits were designed to incentivise work. Of course where a person is vulnerable they need additional support. That’s why charities and public services get funding to provide that support. Laptops and the internet are provided by funding to schools for disadvantaged pupils. Where it’s possible to take responsibility for one’s own life by working hard that is to be welcomed and encouraged because it helps to fund public spending. With a budget deficit going from 50 billion to 400 billion and rising it’s much needed. Unfortunately the economic crisis we are now in will bring mass unemployment and widespread hardship.How it will all be paid for has not been explained but I suspect expectations will have to be adjusted as we become a much poorer and less consumerist society.

We're already on page 10 and nobody has yet proposed what they think should be done to eliminate poverty, and what measures be put in place to ensure it's only ever a stopgap rather than a lifestyle choice. And crucially, how is government to pay for all this?

Two things

1. make companies pay an actual living wage that doesn't require a government top up, freeing up some money.
2. get fit and healthy people that have been over 12 months on benefits to do min 30 hours / week community work like little picking or volunteering for a chosen charity in order to receive their benefits. For mothers it should be around school hours or when the allocated free childcare hours kick in... So 30 free hours = 25 hours of work to allow for travel time.

There’s also the question of all those with mortgages who can’t pay them because of job loss, there will have to be equalisation in benefits (eg interest only mortgages with Universal benefit paying the interest) with rent payments benefits or there’ll be mass homelessness too.

@Ylvamoon
Work for benefits?? So below (the already low) minimums wage?

Here's an idea. If the work is there, pay a proper wage. Radical, I know.

Previously before Covid, benefits were designed to incenticise work
Erm no they weren't. The majority of claimants were/are in work. They need benefits to top up because there's too large a gap between the cost of living and their wages. Largely because of the lack of affordable homes particularly council housing.

Benefits were initially designed as a safety net. To make us a civilised society. But also, less altruistically, to prevent desperate destitute people turning to crime.

Unfortunately for the last 20 years, benefits have increasingly been designed to kill off the sick and disabled and vulnerable. And trap people in poverty because applying for and keeping benefits - needed to survive, for food etc - becomes a full-time job in itself. Time consuming, draining, and mentally exhausting.

@SheepandCow
Work for benefits?? So below (the already low) minimums wage?

Why not? What's wrong with working? I think after a 12 months free ride it would be sensible. A way of building confidence and being ready for a paid job. As you rightly said:
Benefits were initially designed as a safety net. To make us a civilised society. But also, less altruistically, to prevent desperate destitute people turning to crime

Work for benefits?? So below (the already low) minimums wage?

Yes, great idea

One day you may find yourself on a benefit @Ylvamoon - it can happen to anyone - and let's see if you think it such a great idea then. If you think people should work full time while on a benefit, then the benefit needs to be at least the same as what would be paid for those hours at minimum wage. Asking people to work full time for next to nothing - wow, just wow!!! Some of us who are unemployed have actually been in the work force - over 40 years in my case - I don't need to build confidence and be ready for a full time job.