To think that this is unacceptable in this day and age

[nighttrains]

• An estimated 14.3 million people are in poverty in the UK
• 8.3 million are working-age adults, 4.6 million are children, and 1.3 million are of pension age
• Around 22% of people are in poverty, and 34% of children are
• Just under half (49%) of those in poverty are in “persistent povertyy_” (people who would also have fallen below the poverty line in at least two of the last three years). This is as of 2016/17

This is from fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/

It's appalling for a so called civilised country

I'm glad there are people who don't share your views...

I'm not talking about willing volunteers, I'm talking about your proposal to force people to "volunteer" in exchange for benefit payments. Its not volunteering when it's compulsory and it is inhumane.

@Gancanny

I'm glad there are people who don't share your views...

I'm not talking about willing volunteers, I'm talking about your proposal to force people to "volunteer" in exchange for benefit payments. Its not volunteering when it's compulsory and it is inhumane.

It would be more like slavery if benefits were less than minimum wage, close to it anyway.

@eaglejulesk so you are a fit and healthy adult? Why should you not "work" for your benefits after 12 months?

Oh, I guess you are in for the easy ride, with a high sense of entitlement!

For your information, while I am searching for a full time job I have been doing temp work through an agency. When I am doing this 30 hour work each week for the benefit I would not be able to do the temp work - thus I would be deprived of working for an actual wage. Also, how are the unemployed supposed to actively search for work, attend interviews etc. when they are tied up most of the time in this volunteer work of yours? Do you not think this sort of scheme has actually been tried before, and didn't work?

2) get fit and healthy people that have been over 12 months on benefits to do min 30 hours / week community work like little picking or volunteering for a chosen charity in order to receive their benefits. For mothers it should be around school hours or when the allocated free childcare hours kick in... So 30 free hours = 25 hours of work to allow for travel time

Very degrading.

Why not offer government funded courses that lead to jobs that pay instead of making benefits claimants do the dirty work?

Most jobs are word of mouth/its who you know/hidden. If you're not well connected then it's harder to find work as you're up against thousands for jobs those being advertised online.

Picking up litter is not degrading. Shame on you for even suggesting that.

It really is degrading, if you're it unwillingly and you're not being paid.

Keep people at the bottom eh?

Picking up litter is not degrading. Shame on you for even suggesting that

It is degrading if you don't want to do it and you're there because you're being forced to do it.

So I guess then all those ww1 and 2 conscripts were "degraded" because they were forced into the army? And they had to do plenty worse than pick litter.

Thats not the same thing and you know it. Clutch at straws, much?

@Gancanny

Picking up litter is not degrading. Shame on you for even suggesting that

It is degrading if you don't want to do it and you're there because you're being forced to do it.

Of course it’s degrading. That’s why they make people do it on community service.

They make people do it on community service because it's a simple, cheap way of actually providing a service to the community that is accessible to almost anyone. They also do tree planting, is that "degrading" too?

Anyway, I dont believe degradation is inherent in any honest job of work, even if it is one you are conscripted into, provided you yourself are treated with respect and given the same training and ppe that any other worker would be given. I think your world view is pretty warped in fact.

You do know community service is a punishment? So is living on benefits to be a punishment too?

@Porcupineinwaiting

So I guess then all those ww1 and 2 conscripts were "degraded" because they were forced into the army? And they had to do plenty worse than pick litter.

Forcing people into the army is pretty shit to be fair.

Very shit. But not "degrading". I dont think they were degraded at all.

@VinylDetective I'm not defending the idea, I am objecting to the idea that it's degrading.

@Porcupineinwaiting

Very shit. But not "degrading". I dont think they were degraded at all.

Feet rotting off in the trenches was pretty degrading.

Anyway, it’s a straw man to even compare them.

I was really interested to see the responses to my scenario further above but no one engaged :(

TL;DR Why should people who can’t access the few jobs available be forced into slave labour when it’s not their fault they can’t get a job? For example, a single parent with no family support living in a high unemployment area where every job demands flexibility outside of school hours and there’s no weekend/evening childcare available and getting qualified for the few positions available in school hours locally (teachers) is not a possibility. Is that parent expected to pick litter until their child is old enough to be home alone?

At zero interest rates in the U.S., there should be a standard living wage that every family receives then if people want to earn extra money they can go to work. People would be working in jobs they actually enjoy like fixing motorcycles or helping the elderly. We don't need the debt based , privately held reserve bank. But then that would end capitalism. and greed. The world is already getting to this point of a standard monthly living allowance.We can't continue like this with horrific inequality .It's unsustainable.

@DollhouseBurglar

2) get fit and healthy people that have been over 12 months on benefits to do min 30 hours / week community work like little picking or volunteering for a chosen charity in order to receive their benefits. For mothers it should be around school hours or when the allocated free childcare hours kick in... So 30 free hours = 25 hours of work to allow for travel time

Very degrading.

Why not offer government funded courses that lead to jobs that pay instead of making benefits claimants do the dirty work?

Most jobs are word of mouth/its who you know/hidden. If you're not well connected then it's harder to find work as you're up against thousands for jobs those being advertised online.

If the job exists, pay a proper wage (at least minimum wage).

Wrt disability benefits. Either:
@) call for an end to long NHS waiting lists for treatment (leaving people languishing unable to work for longer than necessary) and stop (often male but not always) doctors dismissing patient's symptoms as 'anxiety' until they are far more disabled than would've been had they been given an early diagnosis. This is a particular issue for women.

Or (if you think the NHS can't cope with/afford to do a) than

b) accept that some people are too ill or disabled to work, that no amount of 'incentisisation' can produce Lourdes style miracles, and in a civilised society disabled and ill people should have a safety net.

A large number of benefit recipients have paid into the tax pot for years. In fact everyone pays in. Via VAT if not income tax.

POVERTY should be based on the 10th of 1% who have more wealth than the rest of the world combined. They are rich. We are poor. The rest is just mumbo jumbo to make us feel like we are doing okay. It ain't rocket science, people!

So I guess then all those ww1 and 2 conscripts were "degraded" because they were forced into the army? And they had to do plenty worse than pick litter.

What a stupid comment!!

@Ylvamoon

Gancanny I work with and alongside volunteers in the charity sector. Some are long term unemployed, for whatever reason. They are treated with the highest regard, there is no "then & us"... I'm glad there are people who don't share your views...

I'm a volunteer for a charity. I've worked with lots of others who are volunteers or who come via the jobcentre. Being treated decently is good for confidence building and a few have gone on to find work. Its been interesting talking to several of the women who've come for a few weeks experience.

And why have they decided finding work might be a good thing? Because their children grew up and they are no longer eligible for the extra benefits. Their reason for not working for 16 years (or longer depending on how many children) - because they had children! Children in some families grow up thinking not working is the norm. Lets face it, nowadays unless one parent is a big earner, it takes two to support a family. I don't know how so many non resident parents get away with minimum contributions, and I don't understand why women, at least when their children are at school, don't get some experience or qualifications so they don't find themselves in the position of possibly relying on a pittance until they retire.

There is no one answer why some families are in poverty, so much depends on how much is coming in, but also what its spent on. The benefits system has let people down, sadly they are probably the most needy. So many different reasons, including the lack of personal responsibility, and sadly in some areas, not working is the norm.

So many different reasons, including lack of personal responsibility
Like you say, there are many different reasons.
So how about we start by tackling the reasons that are outside people's individual control?

• Early diagnosis and effective treatment of health conditions (so that people don't end up getting sicker and therefore less likely to be able to work). Delays and cuts to the NHS are a false economy.

• A proper financial safety net so that people can focus their time and mental energy on pursuing work opportunities (instead of the draining constant worry and battle to afford housing, food, bills etc).

The money currently spent on private companies to 'assess' claimants could pay for this.

• Affordable housing - the essential basic required before you can start to look for study or work.

Affordable housing also solves the problem wrt the issue that many people are in full-time work but still need to claim benefits.

• Assessible and affordable healthy food and cooking facilities.

• Early and good mental health and social care support. Poor MH of course being the reason behind so much of the 'lack of personal responsibility'.

Yes there are some people who genuinely don't want to work. But

a) There's many more who do

b) Would you want to work with or employ those people? Wouldn't it be better to give the minority who don't want to work a basic income (because civilised societies don't let people starve).

I think I could probably cope on benefits if we lost everything if I knew it was temporary until we could get employment. I could manage on cheap food and boredom, mainly because I already have the skills, equipment to cook and I've had the income to experiment and I know what cheap food I can serve that will get eaten. And I would have hope that at some point it would end, that it would get better.
If I'd always lived in poverty then I can imagine I wouldn't have had the money to risk experimenting with food, trying recipes that might not work.
But mainly I think if there was no end in view to porridge made with water I'd be so fucking depressed I couldn't be bothered. I can totally understand why, faced with a life of grinding poverty never getting any better, people don't want to eat lentils stewed in water with a side dish of sackcloth and ashes

@JenniferSantoro

And yet so many of these poor families have sky tv, they smoke and drink. They prioritise these over feeding their children. So many little ones will have fallen through the gap during Covid. Often school dinner is the only decent meal they have.

And an expensive mobile phone contract, you forgot that 1 😆 I totally agree with you