To think that this is unacceptable in this day and age

[nighttrains]

• An estimated 14.3 million people are in poverty in the UK
• 8.3 million are working-age adults, 4.6 million are children, and 1.3 million are of pension age
• Around 22% of people are in poverty, and 34% of children are
• Just under half (49%) of those in poverty are in “persistent povertyy_” (people who would also have fallen below the poverty line in at least two of the last three years). This is as of 2016/17

This is from fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/

It's appalling for a so called civilised country

Many on benefits of one sort or another (and as we know, there are MANY types and levels of benefits - far too many IMO)

The benefits available in the UK exist for a reason. Many have been amalgamated into Universal Credit, others exist to support people who are disabled or unwell or to help those who care for someone who is disabled or unwell (rates for these are pitifully low), others exist to help provide for children.

still have 55"+ TVs Sky, Netflix, iPhones tablets the latest trainers, lounge-wear and live on fast food.

Leaving aside your "Benefits Britain"-esque view of stereotypical claimants, these items might be gifts from others, items bought prior to being on benefits, or items bought on high-interest credit. As discussed earlier in the thread, people in difficult circumstances or living chaotic lives are unlikely to make good choices.

"Living on fast food" is, in some cases the cheaper option. If you have enough money on the key meter to run the machine to wash the kids school uniforms OR run the cooker to make their tea but not both then you need to choose one and that last £4 in your purse can be used to buy a large kebab and chips from the pizza shop that's big enough to feed you and the two kids so you're going to bed with hot food in you.

Many don't cook from scratch with an arsenal of herbs and spices to make cheap ingredients interesting.

Herbs and spices cost money and you need to know what to do with them too.

The TV is on practically 24/7

Is it?

Their kids have free school breakfasts and lunches. Why can't any decent mother give her children a good breakfast?

Not all schools offer free breakfasts and for those that do its because there is a need for it. Do you seriously begrudge a hungry child being fed?

Pancakes with fruit and a scoop of yogurt is cheap. Beans or egg on toast is cheap. Eggy bread with half a tin of beans is really good and a large tin of beans can be bought for 35p or less.

If you have access to a supermarket selling basics range products, not everyone does. If you don't live within range of one of these supermarkets then you can't shop there. If you don't have a debit card or you can't afford the £40 minimum spend or you don't have Internet access or you have nowhere to store that much food then you can't shop at one of those supermarkets online either. Your only option for food shopping might be the corner shop or local convenience store where they stock a limited range and the prices are higher.

You would also need to know how to make pancakes and eggy bread or, if you don't know how to make them, have Internet access to look it up or a nearby library with recipe books that you could borrow.

You would need the right kitchen equipment such as a frying pan, a stove, a spatula, not to mention gas or electricity to run the stove.

It's laziness, nothing more.

Its poverty, its real, and its reality for some people in this country.

Your stereotyping? That's laziness.

It can actually cost a lot of money to live frugally.

People vote Tory after Blair and Brown wrecked the economy in 2008.

I don’t vote for either.

*Here we go again! 'poverty' has largely evolved in its definition. What is now called 'poverty' would have been called 'modest' some years back, and 'luxury' in some countries.

There is a level of proper poverty, those who can't claim benefits for various reasons, and single males and motherless women, but it doesn't account for 22% and certainly bit 1/3rd if children in this country.

Since when have foodbanks been modest or luxurious? It’s a national scandal that they should be necessary in a first world country.*

On the whole they aren't needed. Very few people would need them if they learnt to cook and budget (& worked in some cases)

Parents but Cheerios ( porridge is cheaper), squash and pop (no need, water is free & all we drink in our house except tea), biscuits, crisps etc not needed. Lentils, beans, stews under utilised.

Don't smoke, drink alcohol (not seeing all low income families do but some do).

I fail to see poverty in a lot of these cases where people have a home, TV, food, phone, internet, access to free education.

It really can. It's not just about lack of money, it is about the lack of choices associated with having no money and trying to choose between Shit Option A or Shit Option B.

• discussed earlier in the thread, people in difficult circumstances or living chaotic lives are unlikely to make good choices.

"Living on fast food" is, in some cases the cheaper option. If you have enough money on the key meter to run the machine to wash the kids school uniforms OR run the cooker to make their tea but not both then you need to choose one and that last £4 in your purse can be used to buy a large kebab and chips from the pizza shop that's big enough to feed you and the two kids so you're going to bed with hot food in you.*

That's not really good enough is it.dobt have kids you can't afford. Yes circumstances change but rarely so much that you are comfortably well off and then can only need your kid a sodding kebab.

And I'm sorry but someone living a chaotic life needs to sort that out, not have people pick up after them to enable the lifestyle to continue.

Don't know how to cook? Bloody well learn. I had to learn. Had no choice. I was a student working 3 jobs to pay my fees. Needed to learn how to cook recent food cheap. I lived 3 miles from a supermarket and so twice a week walked down with my rucksack and trudged the hour back with Tins on my back and lighter stuff in bags in my hands. I did it to get me through a university education so I could afford a better way of life.

It is a difficult situation as living all my life on a council estate I see generations choosing not to work, that’s mum and dad, not single parent families and from the outside they don’t appear to want for much. I feel sorry for the children though as what hope have they got being brought up with that example of how life should be. There are many 10-15 year olds drug dealing as an easy way to make cash and it’s very sad.

“When I was a student I walked twenty miles to the shop five times a week and dragged my shopping back behind me on wheels I made myself. I had to, in between studying and working nine jobs.”

Sigh. Great. Bully for you.

There’s so little empathy in the world from some people. It’s sad.

I wouldn't worry, marmitecrackers often displays an astounding lack of empathy on many threads. On one thread she once implied that my child's ARFID was down to being fed beige food, if he didn't know it exists then he wouldn't want to eat it. I tend to ignore whatever she posts now.

It is a difficult situation as living all my life on a council estate I see generations choosing not to work, that’s mum and dad, not single parent families and from the outside they don’t appear to want for much. I feel sorry for the children though as what hope have they got being brought up with that example of how life should be. There are many 10-15 year olds drug dealing as an easy way to make cash and it’s very sad.

It really is and for so many of these families their chaotic/disordered lifestyle reaches a point where the lifestyle itself prevents them from getting out as they're not functional enough to get it together.

The answer is investment, not that the Daily Mail "throw them in the workhouse" types want to hear it. Bring back SureStart, invest in early interventions programmes, invest in early years education for two and three year olds, invest in libraries, invest in laptops and Internet for disadvantaged children, invest in education initiatives to encourage those children to stay in school. Remove the benefits cap, the two child limit, and increase benefit rates so that being on benefits doesn't equal a great chance of living in poverty. No one is saying benefits should be equal to wages but they should be at a level that actually does cover rent, utilities, food/toiletries, and basic extras such as clothing, bus fares, etc. Then you won't have these children missing school because they have their period or because they don't have any clean uniform or because they need to spend the day doing illegal cash in hand work to help out. Welfare policies should be designed to help people up, not push them down.

Ok so I get what you are all saying and to some extent I agree, however, I grew up in poverty, real poverty. Since then I’ve had two children, own my own house And work hard for what I have. There was no inheritance money in my family, no money for uni or college or driving lessons, we lived in hand me downs, home made clothes and food banks. I left school at 16 with barley any GCSE’s yet at 28 I went back to college with a 4 year old, paid for myself to obtain a professional qualification by working as well as looking after a child as a single parent. Yes it took me 10 years but now I am in a place no one in my family have ever obtained. Yes there is poverty, but surley there becomes a point where You say enough is enough. I promised myself I would always do better and when I had a child it gave me the absolute tenacity to get there, as no child of mine would have to endure what I did. Don’t get me wrong I don’t blame my parents They were amazing and did their absolute best bit for me I made sure I had more and my children have what they need.

I don’t know how much benefits are a week as I am lucky enough to have never been in that situation. I do know someone who is on benefits, in social housing, all the help available basically, gets grants for furniture, has huge flat screen tv, sky, smokes, drinks, iPhone, money to spend on weed but is always complaining she has no money for nappies etc. Would she be described as being in poverty? My own mother is on a basic state pension and nothing else. She manages to pay all the household bills including broadband, is able to buy a new piece of clothing when needed, run a car and eat a varied and healthy diet, heat the house enough to stay warm (we’ve tried to take over her heating bill as we worry she doesn’t have it warm enough but she flatly refuses) she heats it up to a point then has her electric blanket and extra jumper on. She cooks from scratch and freezes meals, nothing is wasted, she budgets enough to buy each grandchild a small Xmas and birthday present. Would that be defined as being in poverty? Genuinely interested. I do agree that there should be more social housing available (not to buy and sell on though) so that people who work and struggle to make ends meet are able to live a comfortable life without having to use food bank.

@Grancanny I agree to an extent that it is the lifestyle that children are brought up in. I grew up on a council estate and left when I was 16. If I had stayed I would not be in the position I am in. I knew I had to get out, so I did. Some are not that lucky and as much as my parents were devastated at me leaving my home town I did and Never moved back. I now Look at people I went to school with who have never left and are in the same jobs, drinking in the same pubs in the same seats,
Nothing has changed and they are in a no better position in life than they were 20 years ago.

@Superpanicky absolutely my mother is the same! Works for minimum wages, Pays all her bills, doesn’t have any debt, yet can barley afford the heating ( I Have just done the same and offered to pay) which she is flatly refused! She loves in the same house On the same
Council estate I grew up on over 30 years ago, where as next door seems to have endless money, doesn’t work, 3 kids, weed and booze, yet every week asks my mum to lend her money for nappies and baby formula. Makes me so effing angry !!🤬

@Realitysucks it’s infuriating isn’t it! My mother grew up in extreme poverty, they slept four children in a bed and had to layer coats over themselves to keep warm at night. The house was infested with cockroaches and mice from the general store next door, and my mum (as a small child with a steady hand and good eye) actually used to cut everyone’s hair in the family as they couldn’t afford to go to a barbers or hairdressers. Christmas was a few satsumas, nuts and some dolls made from broken bits of other random dolls. She sees herself as lucky now and actually enjoys being frugal- as she describes it.

If you work for minimum wage pay rent, council tax gas electric other Bill's you'll find it just doesn't add up. Rent is far too high, wages too low. Coucil tax up north is very expensive

Past generations had no central heating, no TV, no car, hand me down or self made recycled clothes, no telephone, no holiday away, one small gift at Christmas and a free school meal the only proper cooked meal of the day. They did have free healthcare and free education which provided an opportunity to raise their standard of living. They did not see themselves as poor or expect anything from anyone as a matter of pride and saw hard work and thrift as the way to survive and improve their circumstances. They grew vegetables and fruit on allotments and made porridge for breakfast. Some raised in these circumstances went on to get better paid jobs than their parents, were successful academically or in business ventures. Some people genuinely can’t do that but some who can don’t or don’t realise they can and consider their situation the responsibility of others. Some people who are now considered poor have a smart phone, TV and fashionable clothes. That would’ve been riches in the past and is today in a large part of the world. Of course we must deal with absolute poverty and ensure children are well fed with a healthy diet and that everyone has a decent, safe and warm place to live. The rest is relative. Not being able to afford to buy a child brand trainers, a playstation or a mobile phone is not poverty. And not having those things is an incentive to work hard at school and college and get qualifications for remunerative employment. There are also many issues that contribute to the inter generational cycle of poverty where aspiration is eroded and a benefits existence becomes the norm. These need to be tackled and deprived regions get the investment they need. Schools could teach parenting and child psychology to improve children’s experience at home and equip them to benefit from the opportunities that education offers. Sadly with Covid, there will be mass unemployment and many of these opportunities will be lost. More people will have to learn the skills of living on a lot less and become more adaptable and innovative in how to generate an income.

^FatCatThinCat

It's awful. I was on benefits when I was a single mum. I ran my circumstances through the benefits calculator recently and I'd now receive about £30 per week less than back then. That's £30 a week worse off than 26 years ago. Shameful.^

26 years ago £30 was even worth something. I moved to London 26 years ago and rented a room for £40 a week (all bills included). Now that doesn’t even cover my council tax!

@Mirinska

just to pick up two points

allotments - have you any idea how difficult it is to get an allotment?When you do get one its likely to overgrown and need a lot of work to bring into production. I have an allotment, it took me two years to get it under control, Allotments also cost money - rent, key deposits, you need tools, seeds etc etc. You need knowledge about soil types, pest control, what to plant where and when. Its not a case of flinging a few seeds around and hey presto you are keeping a family in fresh veg.

Internet- phones and devices. My son is 16 and at college. Half the course is being taught on line, lucky him that I can afford the broadband and laptop
Just stop and think for a minute about how much of our lives require on line access - and don’t say you can always go to the library because for many that isnt an option

Sadly there will always be the haves and have nots within society, but I don't think that handing out more money is the solution. Part of the issue is education. My husband is a pensioner and we are in receipt of Pension Credit.We are not without though.

We eat well, are never cold, and even run a small car, BUT we don't have Sky, Netflix or any of the others, we don't own posh phones, have our nails done fortnightly, we don't smoke or drink, and cook everything from scratch. It's choices and education and that would be far more valuable than a few e tea pounds.

I'm on benefit and just about managed to pay my bills with nothing left for food, since I had the extra now get £100 week I'm flush, and from 2nd NOV I'll get my pension so will be on £160 a week, I'm rich can't wait

@Marmitecrackers
I really don't think that you get it. I worked 2 jobs whilst going to college and doing a 3rd job as part of my course (for almost no pay) I got a relatively good job married and had 2 kids with no government help except for child benefit (family allowance in old terms).
Then dh dropped dead at 38 from a brain aneurism, dc 2 has adhd, asd, tourettes and a host of other issues his child care costs £16 per hour during the day more over night. My job requires night shifts so had to quit it as had no family to help and couldn't afford childcare, so got a minimum wage job during school hours and claimed benefits to "top up " my wages but dc2 has 3-5 different appointments per month and regularly got sent home from school as he wasn't coping. So I lost my job and can't get 1 that has the flexibility needed for my ds. So now we survive on benefits. I don't smoke, drink or do drugs. Dc1 is at uni (very proud) and works 2 jobs so she can afford transport to and from uni plus books etc, she can't even afford to live in the city her uni is at.
Do you think that I shouldn't of had kids?
Do you think that I chose this life?
Am I in a better position than some yes as I know how to cook from scratch and budget yes.
Do I have any money left at the end of the month no.
Are my kids fed and clothed in clean clothes yes.
Do you know how hard it is when you have to skip meals just to be able to afford the bus fare to hospital appointments for your child?
I suggest that you get off your high horse and have a long hard look at yourself because you and people like you are the real problem

Well that’s what 10 years of the tori’s can do.

Past generations had no central heating, no TV, no car, hand me down or self made recycled clothes, no telephone, no holiday away, one small gift at Christmas and a free school meal the only proper cooked meal of the day. .. They did not see themselves as poor or expect anything from anyone as a matter of pride and saw hard work and thrift as the way to survive and improve their circumstances. They grew vegetables and fruit on allotments and made porridge for breakfast. Some raised in these circumstances went on to get better paid jobs than their parents, were successful academically or in business ventures. Some people genuinely can’t do that but some who can don’t or don’t realise they can and consider their situation the responsibility of others. Some people who are now considered poor have a smart phone, TV and fashionable clothes.

Past generations didn't see themselves as poor, because most people lived that way. You can't seriously expect people today to live like people did back then. It just isn't an option.

Education relies on kids having online access. The simplest of tasks now needs adults to have online access. Bank branches are closing, and try doing most tasks (renewing your car tax? paying your bills? Communicating with many companies?) without email or a computer and you'll struggle.

Being poor is not having access to things that are needed to navigate life at the time in which you're living it. I had a 12" black and white TV when I was first married. The poorest of people wouldn't be able to get their hands on one of those now. So should they not have a Tv that would have seemed the epitome of technlogy to me back then? Of course not. They live now, and I was living a life in the 70s.

Someone on benefits SHOULD be able to own a TV, to have internet access to carry out their daily lives or education, and a phone. You're being ridiculous.

Right now I'm supporting a pregnant young woman who has finally escaped an abusive marriage. She is being found emergency accommodation, but right now she needs help from food banks and all the help she can get. And damn right, she needs a phone to manage the chaos in her life, and I hope she'll be able to have a TV to take her mind off what she's going through.

You seem to think that the poor don't deserve to live a normal life.

@SallyB392

Sadly there will always be the haves and have nots within society, but I don't think that handing out more money is the solution. Part of the issue is education. My husband is a pensioner and we are in receipt of Pension Credit.We are not without though.

We eat well, are never cold, and even run a small car, BUT we don't have Sky, Netflix or any of the others, we don't own posh phones, have our nails done fortnightly, we don't smoke or drink, and cook everything from scratch. It's choices and education and that would be far more valuable than a few e tea pounds.

Mixed aged couples now ( where one is under pension age and one is pension age) would be made to claim Universal credit and the younger one be made to look for work.