To really dislike my 4 year old at the minute

[Clearasmuddypuddles]

DS has just turned 4. He has always been a difficult, high maintenance child but the past 3 month have become really difficult.

He is so rude. Will shout in my face if he isn’t getting his own way, will speak to me horribly and if I try to put consequences in will shout at me that I’m annoying him and tell me to go away.

He can be so lovely sometimes too, and he dotes on his little sister, but then can also be so mean to her, refusing to share or let her join in.

I need some advice on appropriate consequences for rudeness please as I can’t cope with the toddler tantrums or the way he speaks to me anymore!

Obedience is a strange word to use about a child.

Why? I'm in charge. To obey is "to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions of". That's the desired outcome, that he follows my instructions. I am the parent, I am in charge.

you are teaching him cruelty

I think you are being incredibly offensive (about my very normal parenting). It is not cruel to deny a child television. Billions of children manage without it.

Fortunately I am a confident parent with a happy and largely well behaved DS. His reports speak highly about his behaviour and manners, so I will ignore you and continue to happily parent him as I see fit. I hope other less secure parents aren't left anxious or worried by your excessive comments.

Remove him from the situation each and every time he is rude. Every time. Put him somewhere by himself (safely) and tell him that he can join back in/return to what he's doing when he's ready to be polite.

Repeat forever.

Do this with absolutely zero emotion, no anger, no shouting, no sighing. Just remove him from the situation and explain why.

This removes the stimulus but doesn't feed the behaviour (even shouting reinforces behaviour, as its still attention).
He'll kickly associate rudeness with getting nothing.

I'm a Nanny, and have dealt with dozens of children with varying ranges of behavioural issues - this never fails to work when it is implemented consistently and not undone by the parents

Behaviour = consequences
Rudeness means you don't get what you want.

You’re not teaching him to be kind to his sister, you’re not examining why he feels the urge to be unkind to her - you’re allowing him to do whatever he likes at first, then punishing him for following his own instincts- which at 3, he can’t control or explain.

Eh? Of course I asked him why he was unkind to her. The answer was "I want all the toys for myself". He has some special toys just for him that she isnt allowed. He simply wants all of them, and needs to be taught that this desire is not reasonable. I acknowledged his desire, but plain and simple, he is never going to allowed to have all the toys to himself.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Obedience is a strange word to use about a child.

Why? I'm in charge. To obey is "to comply with or follow the commands, restrictions, wishes, or instructions of". That's the desired outcome, that he follows my instructions. I am the parent, I am in charge.

you are teaching him cruelty

I think you are being incredibly offensive (about my very normal parenting). It is not cruel to deny a child television. Billions of children manage without it.

Fortunately I am a confident parent with a happy and largely well behaved DS. His reports speak highly about his behaviour and manners, so I will ignore you and continue to happily parent him as I see fit. I hope other less secure parents aren't left anxious or worried by your excessive comments.

I think I was fairly clear that the cruelty comes from long, drawn-out punishments that must be followed through so you, that parent, don’t lose face. Not simply ‘no tv’. But you know that.

Being in charge doesn’t mean that you can’t appreciate his point of view, or treat him like the very little child he his, with all his developments still ahead of him. Being in charge doesn’t mean goading them into a new argument for something they did hours earlier. Being a good parent isn’t about obedience, it’s about compassion and understanding for your own child, not seeing them as the enemy, or selfish, or bad.

Phlegmy head is right. Behaviour = consequences.

Eh? Of course I asked him why he was unkind to her. The answer was "I want all the toys for myself". He has some special toys just for him that she isnt allowed. He simply wants all of them, and needs to be taught that this desire is not reasonable. I acknowledged his desire, but plain and simple, he is never going to allowed to have all the toys to himself.

I’m starting to think you might be on the wind up here. What logical, rational answer did you expect from your 3.5 year old? And you punished him for this scenario? Instead of distracting him or talking to him or making him laugh or the endless other positive things you could have done instead?

I can’t believe you would seriously ask a 3.5 year old ‘why are you behaving like this?’ and take their answer as gospel.

Being a good parent isn’t about obedience, it’s about compassion and understanding for your own child

Of course I have compassion and understanding for my own child but I also have to mould him into a productive member of human society, which will mean him learning to do things he does not want, regularly, for the good of society, and not protest about these things. He will need to learn to follow rules where he does not fully understand the complexities of why those rules are in place. Eg most 5 year olds must wear school uniform, but will not understand why. They must do it anyway so need to be taught that instructions issued by mummy, daddy, their teacher etc must be followed.

Again, that’s not what you’re doing. You’re allowing your small child to follow their own instincts (hitting, throwing, taking all the toys) and rather than advocating for stepping in before this behaviour takes place, you’re allowing them to do whatever their undeveloped brain tells them to do, and then punishing them for it. Sometimes hours later.

Its not a one off!! Are you having a laugh? Most 3 yr olds do not willingly share toys with siblings unless made to!

Oh my lord. Read my answers. I did not punish him for that. I bribed him to be kind to his sister for a day. As I expected, this illustrated to him that when he is kind to her, shes fun to play with. I didnt have to do it twice.

“Obedience is underated”

God yes! This times a million! I work in a school nursery and it’s so obvious the kids that have never been taught boundaries or experienced consequences for their actions. It’s hard work for the staff because we have to then introduce the concept, but also it’s sad for the child because they can’t understand why suddenly the whole world isn’t revolving around them.

OP you sound like you are handling it fine. Time outs are good, just remember not to engage with the protests or shouting. Stand firm - nerves of steel required

Phlegmy head is right. Behaviour = consequences.
Absolutely, but it should be consequences that are appropriate to the behaviour, as soon as possible afterwards. I don't think that threatening " no swimming trip if you hit your brother" is appropriate, it's not something that's going to help him think twice about hitting his brother in future, it's just something you've thought of on the spur of the moment because you are cross at his behaviour.

I think it is perfectly possible to raise children well with a variety of approaches. I am not a fan of imposing punishments myself, and IMO it isn't a necessary element of raising children. However, many parents I respect a great deal incorporate punishment in their parental repertoire. Many paths to the same summit and all that jazz.

You’re allowing your small child to follow their own instincts (hitting, throwing, taking all the toys

You cant always stop such impulse behaviour before it happens. What do you do if you are cooking the dinner and they are sat at the table and bigger one steals the playdo off smaller one repeatedly? You cannot always be sat with them.

I get preschool reports saying my kid is really well behaved, follows instructions, has lovely manners and is always really happy. I'm going to view my approach as successful.

I don't think that threatening " no swimming trip if you hit your brother" is appropriate, it's not something that's going to help him think twice about hitting his brother in future

And yet. It has worked! Sometimes there aren't any immediate consequences that the child gives a flying fuck about. I havent "just thought of that". When I impose consequences in that way, it's usually rare and for a repeat offence and as a result I'm deliberately choosing something they really do care about.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Its not a one off!! Are you having a laugh? Most 3 yr olds do not willingly share toys with siblings unless made to!

Oh my lord. Read my answers. I did not punish him for that. I bribed him to be kind to his sister for a day. As I expected, this illustrated to him that when he is kind to her, shes fun to play with. I didnt have to do it twice.

And yet earlier you said:

It worked really well. Over time he learned that when he is kind to her, she becomes fun to play with, and now they have a great relationship sans bribes.

So was it immediate or not? I’m guessing not, since you’re still calling him selfish (at 3.5)

I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I’ll never agree that total control, total vigilance, never back down is a good way to raise children. I guess you’ll never agree that punishments for instinctive behaviour at 3.5 is cruel. So what else is there to say?

I'm deliberately choosing something they really do care about.

Although Jesus Christ to this! He’s 3 and a half and you are trying to chose to take away something he really cares about? To threaten him? Almost definitely on a wind up now.

Seriously not on a fucking wind up. His sister weighs 7.kg, he weighs 17kg.if he is fucking sitting on her repeatedly, its dangerous and yeah, I'm going to warn him, then follow through on those consequences. It's rare I have to follow through - he has learned I will, so the warning is enough.

With regard to always following through on threats, DH threw a Christmas pudding out of an upstairs window once. DC always take him seriously now because if he'll do that (with his favourite food), what else is he capable of?!

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Seriously not on a fucking wind up. His sister weighs 7.kg, he weighs 17kg.if he is fucking sitting on her repeatedly, its dangerous and yeah, I'm going to warn him, then follow through on those consequences. It's rare I have to follow through - he has learned I will, so the warning is enough.

If he’s sitting on her repeatedly then obviously the punishments aren’t working! So you know he has form for this, so you - the parent - can’t put them in a situation where he can sit on her! That’s hard work for you, and it’s bad luck, and it’s unfair but he’s three years old and it’s not his fault either!

Children are innately selfish. It's a gradual process to teach them to follow instructions and they often won want to.

My DS still has selfish tendency but has learned its not worth the consequences. Much as I learned that myself, as I child.

I am off now. Good luck op, he sounds normal just be consistent and stick to your guns. 4 year olds can be stubborn as, its exhausting.

My DS still has selfish tendency but has learned its not worth the consequences.

He really hasn’t, at age 3.5.

@Clearasmuddypuddles Any updates OP? I’m looking for the light at the end of the tunnel as I’m currently in a similar position to you… x