To really dislike my 4 year old at the minute

[Clearasmuddypuddles]

DS has just turned 4. He has always been a difficult, high maintenance child but the past 3 month have become really difficult.

He is so rude. Will shout in my face if he isn’t getting his own way, will speak to me horribly and if I try to put consequences in will shout at me that I’m annoying him and tell me to go away.

He can be so lovely sometimes too, and he dotes on his little sister, but then can also be so mean to her, refusing to share or let her join in.

I need some advice on appropriate consequences for rudeness please as I can’t cope with the toddler tantrums or the way he speaks to me anymore!

Thanks everyone!

I do know I’m in it for the long haul with him, I have been dealing with his emotions and meltdowns for years. I try to preempt everything, always try to avoid a meltdown but it’s so exhausting. I’m a SENCO in a school so know all about creating routines, language of choice etc... but at 5:30pm on a Friday night I just wanted him to sit and eat his bloody dinner without a drama!

My DD was horrible the spring/summer before she started school (she had turned four in the Easter)
Absolutely vile. We felt trapped in a cycle of negativity.
I introduced a pom pom jar whereby positive behaviour would get a pom pom and prizes at 10/20/30. Bad behaviour would lose one.
Also I established some house rules and put up a poster with them on
She started the first day on negative pom poms but she eventually got the hang of it. It encouraged me to look for good things to praise
I would echo being very firm and not afraid to eg bundle child under arm and leave the park for hitting me

Would some talk when he is calm about big feelings help. Acknowledge that everyone has big angry feelings and these are some of the best ways of dealing with them. Then teach him ways eg saying "I feel angry about..." then going and sitting and watching the glitter shaker settle, or throwing bean bags into a box or whatever ideas you think might appeal to him. Practice when calm. Then when he throws a wobbly acknowledge 'i think you might have some big feelings there' and ask him to go and try the strategy you have taught.
It takes some of the sting out for you if you acknowledge that a lot of four year olds are often like this and you deal with it as a parent just as inevitably as you used to deal with dirty nappies and night feeds.

Try music at dinner, classic if you can. It works wonders here whenever I want them to calm down. Just on unobtrusively in the background.

I second the suggestion to read and follow 123 Magic. My eldest was a nightmare child, needed CAMHS involvement for him (behaviour, no other issues) and they recommended it. It made a massive difference, although it was hard work. He's now 17, and (generally) a lovely young man. Good luck.

@Clearasmuddypuddles

Thanks everyone!

I do know I’m in it for the long haul with him, I have been dealing with his emotions and meltdowns for years. I try to preempt everything, always try to avoid a meltdown but it’s so exhausting. I’m a SENCO in a school so know all about creating routines, language of choice etc... but at 5:30pm on a Friday night I just wanted him to sit and eat his bloody dinner without a drama!

Absolutely fair enough, it’s hard work. But you can’t punish him for something he can’t control.

Do you know what, I have 4 children and I struggled with my eldest at that age, but my youngest is now a month off of four and I find him really easy.

I don't think the difference is the children. Actually in many ways my eldest was easier. I just expected so much of my eldest, because I was comparing him to how he was as a toddler. Now I'm comparing my youngest to my older children and I see he is still such a baby.

That isn't to say you accept bad behaviour. However, if he is rude, I assume it is because he is still learning, and has made a mistake. I say to him, 'that was very rude, it would be better to say it like this....'. He says "oh, sorry mummy". If he has a strop about dinner, I just say, 'I'm sorry you are sad that you haven't got your favourite, but you can either eat it or get down ". If he does need a consequence, it is immediate and short. If he had a tantrum I say' come for a cuddle when you are ready '. Sometimes he cries for 5-10 minutes, then comes for a cuddle. Not saying I'm doing it right by any stretch of the imagination, but I am really enjoying him and it feels more successful than the rounds of super nanny time out and consequences I did with my eldest. I mean that totally works, it just felt like we were always at loggerheads.

I think the thing is that children pretty much always want to be good. Sometimes, they struggle with that because of their developmental capabilities, but their intention is to please.

Do most of the problem 4 year olds have a new baby sibling? The baby never gets warned, told off, put on the naughty step regardless.

@ Pumperthepumper

At 4yrs old children are old enough to understand ''cause and effect'' FGS

You're very obviously not a professional who has been trained in child development, are you ?

Children begin to understand cause and effect as young a 8 mth old, and by the time they're around 2 they're good enough at it to begin potty training FGS !

Maybe try and do a little research before disregarding others posts ?

I don't think for a moment that everyone will have the same opinions/ ideas, and a parent should always do what they feel is right for their own child, but for goodness sake at least be informed about the subject before declaring another post as ''absolutely terrible advice''

Explore parenting classes at your local children’s centre and family counselling if needs be. It’s not a criticism, but if he’s being rude is he seeing that behaviour in your house? How does your DH speak to him and you?

What tone of voice do you use towards him? Is it gentle and kind, do you and DH give him lots of attention or are you distracted by other things?

Routine, structure and regular healthy, filling meals are important- but so is love.

I’d also cut out any tablet, phone and PlayStation etc use he has - it makes children’s behaviour terrible.

@updownroundandround

@ Pumperthepumper

At 4yrs old children are old enough to understand ''cause and effect'' FGS

You're very obviously not a professional who has been trained in child development, are you ?

Children begin to understand cause and effect as young a 8 mth old, and by the time they're around 2 they're good enough at it to begin potty training FGS !

Maybe try and do a little research before disregarding others posts ?

I don't think for a moment that everyone will have the same opinions/ ideas, and a parent should always do what they feel is right for their own child, but for goodness sake at least be informed about the subject before declaring another post as ''absolutely terrible advice''

I am a trained professional, actually. A four year old does not have the brain development to associate poor behaviour in the morning with a punishment hours later.

Your entire post (with bolded letters to make people think you actually knew what you were talking about) is full of bullying adult behaviour. You should speak to someone about how you view children. Your attitude is pathetic.

*You are the parent and he is the child, so there cannot be any confusion.

You dictate the rules, he has to follow them or he faces the consequences !

Stay calm and controlled. He gets one warning.

''Put your sweetie wrapper in the bin please'' - He refuses
''If you don't put it in the bin, then you won't get to watch Paw Patrol tonight'' - he still refuses or is rude/ yells......
''OK, you haven't done what Mummy asked you to do, so no Paw Patrol tonight.
You ignore any tantrum/ screaming etc except to tell him ''I won't listen to you until you've calmed down, put your wrapper in the bin, and say Sorry for shouting'' and then pay all your attention to your other DC until your son has calmed down, put his wrapper in the bin and can apologize and join in.

He will try to goad you into paying him attention, usually by being even more badly behaved, but if you keep (calmly) repeating then paying attention to the child who is behaving well, and not giving him attention for behaving badly, he'll realize that behaving well will get him more of your attention than acting badly does.*

I also think this isn’t very good advice.

Firstly because it’s generally agreed with children this age that punishments are most effective if they follow soon after the bad behaviour. That’s why some parents find immediate time-outs very effective.

Secondly because in this case it seems fairly likely that the behaviour is related at least in part to insecurity around the arrival of his new sibling, so deliberately ignoring him in favour of his new sibling is likely to make the problem much worse.

updownroundandround

Put a few more 's in your post why don't you, there weren't enough I don't think.

I hate these threads, because the poor OP always gets people piling on with conflicting advice saying she absolutely must do x, y, z. The fact of the matter is there is no one size fits all approach. All children are different. The "how to talk so kids will listen" method will work brilliantly for some children and not for others. Equally time out will work brilliantly for some children and not for others. There's nothing inherently wrong with either approach, you just have to figure out which one works for your child and which one you can stick with long term.

Personally, I find that reward charts work best with my own 4 year old, and we also use time outs for things like hitting or spitting. I have zero tolerance for rudeness - if he speaks to me in a rude way he knows I won't respond until he speaks to me nicely.

That is what works for my child. You have to find out what works for yours.

@ Pumperthepumper

Having read some of your previous posts (the ones which have not been deleted for offensiveness ) shows that you have very little knowledge of either children and child development, nor of how to share your point of view without being offensive

I politely suggest you learn what constitutes a 'discussion' and the importance of respecting other posters opinions, as well as perhaps simply 'Googling' the developmental/ developmental stages of childhood

I agree with pumperthepumper, a four year old will understand cause and effect, when the consequence happens pretty much immediately, not when the punishment happens several hours later. If a child has one episode of bad behaviour, then behaves well for the rest of the day, making them miss out on something is very confusing for them.

@updownroundandround

@ Pumperthepumper

Having read some of your previous posts (the ones which have not been deleted for offensiveness ) shows that you have very little knowledge of either children and child development, nor of how to share your point of view without being offensive

I politely suggest you learn what constitutes a 'discussion' and the importance of respecting other posters opinions, as well as perhaps simply 'Googling' the developmental/ developmental stages of childhood

I don’t know how many other ways I can tell you this - you are wrong, and your advice is terrible. Do you need me to bold some of the words? You have a horrible attitude towards children, particularly when you know he has sensory issues. You should be ashamed.

I coukdsay exactly the same. I've just had ds4 throwing himself on the ground because he didn't want to tidy and then when I tried to send him to time out he had a hissy because he wanted to tidy up 🙄. I feel like i can't win. I made him sit down and have a drink and when he calmed down we attempted to have a chat. It's every Sunday though which is always hard for all of us. On the plus side he's a little angel in school 🤣

Dont call it the feckin fours for nothings. I'm doing this programme called 'the incredible years' I'm finding it great. I also found toddler taming and 1,2,3 magic quite good

U can buy incredible yers book too. Love a self help book me

@NannyR

I agree with pumperthepumper, a four year old will understand cause and effect, when the consequence happens pretty much immediately, not when the punishment happens several hours later. If a child has one episode of bad behaviour, then behaves well for the rest of the day, making them miss out on something is very confusing for them.

Agree. It's totally confusing for them because the punishment seems arbitrary and creates completely the opposite of the effect you are aiming for. Instead of naughtiness having predictable consequences, you have - from the child's point of view - ignored bad behaviour (no immediate consequence) and punished good behaviour.

It’s called the FU FOURS for a reason. He is at the transition point between the natural selfishness of toddler-hood and becoming someone who also has to be concerned about the people around him. It is challenging as a parent, but just keep reinforcing appropriate behavior and this phase will pass.

I agree with Pumperthepumper that punishment really is unnecessary and could just create a negative feedback loop: misbehaviour, punishment, resentment, misbehaviour, etc. That is not to suggest that rudeness or other undesirable behaviour should be tolerated, of course. But I would try to take a step back and look at the bigger picture, especially in terms of helping the child cope with emotions, frustrations, etc. Give him language to identify what he is feeling, and explain how you feel too. Also praise him when he plays nicely with his sister, etc. I'm sure you do that anyway.

It's a difficult stage for some children. They are moving toward the 5-7 shift but they aren't quite there yet, so they may be struggling with reasoning and problem solving and emotional regulation.

I can't help but worry that some children are being underestimated

They can understand the concept of delayed gratification by 4 yrs, i.e ''we will get an ice cream after we have done the shopping and put it away, ( I'm not saying they're always happy about it) because it's often practiced frequently, especially if you have more than one child.

And yet, some think that the same 4yr old can't understand non-instant/ delayed punishment i.e ''I told you that if you hit your brother again you would not be allowed to watch TV tonight'' Yes, they may well need reminding, and they won't be happy about it, but that doesn't mean they don't/can't understand it

They can understand cause and consequence long before age 4, they are usually masters of it by 2 yrs. i.e. They do a particular thing or behaviour to illicit an expected result i.e When I press this button, my car comes out, or when I keep getting out of my bed at night, Mummy comes and sleeps with me etc

Many children have been attending nursery (some even at school at age 4), and they have been 'remembering' everything..................friends names, what toy goes where, nursery rhymes, what happens when it's snack time etc Everything learned by experiencing, repeating and practicing. That's also how they learn about consequences for bed behaviour, experiencing, repeating and practicing.

It's up to the individual parent how they choose to discipline their child, and everyone has their own way of parenting, but be careful not to underestimate the level of development of your child has reached, and what they are capable of.

They can understand the concept of delayed gratification by 4 yrs, i.e ''we will get an ice cream after we have done the shopping and put it away, ( I'm not saying they're always happy about it) because it's often practiced frequently, especially if you have more than one child.
Yes but I think the point people are making is that if a child is perfectly behaved for the six hours after their poor behaviour but their punishment is not watching something they like on the TV for the rest of the day, then the punishment doesn't really link to what they did earlier in the day, and probably leads to resentment.

Punishment is not always unnecessary.

Some children want everything their way. These are wants not needs, and sometimes a four year olds wants are unreasonable and selfish to the point of having unfair impacts on those around them eg siblings.

Example:
Ds wants to watch go jetters. He gets to choose the first program and chooses this.it is then DDs turn. She wants to choose hey duggee. DS does not want this so kicks off. Distraction etc does not placate him, he continues to scream and shout, spoiling DD enjoying her choice of program.

He has to be removed from the room. It is not fair on DD to be ignored and get no attention, so I do not sit in the hall negotiating with DS who is going to ignore anything I say as he is in a rage. Effectively this is a time out, a form of punishment, and there has not been any alternative imho which is fair on DD who is being well behaved.