To really dislike my 4 year old at the minute

[Clearasmuddypuddles]

DS has just turned 4. He has always been a difficult, high maintenance child but the past 3 month have become really difficult.

He is so rude. Will shout in my face if he isn’t getting his own way, will speak to me horribly and if I try to put consequences in will shout at me that I’m annoying him and tell me to go away.

He can be so lovely sometimes too, and he dotes on his little sister, but then can also be so mean to her, refusing to share or let her join in.

I need some advice on appropriate consequences for rudeness please as I can’t cope with the toddler tantrums or the way he speaks to me anymore!

@ Pumperthepumper

P.S I have an ASD child, and your comment of :

''You have a horrible attitude towards children, particularly when you know he has sensory issues.''

is neither true, nor in any way constructive.

Oh and be careful around always giving young kids the appearance of choice.

I did this with DS for a while. All it did was teach him he would always get to choose. actually in life, he does not, often he simply has to do things he does not like, without question. Because other people have needs (like safety, or getting to school on time) that trump his wants.

And yet, some think that the same 4yr old can't understand non-instant/ delayed punishment confused i.e ''I told you that if you hit your brother again you would not be allowed to watch TV tonight'' Yes, they may well need reminding, and they won't be happy about it, but that doesn't mean they don't/can't understand it hmm

It’s not a case of understanding it. It’s a case of their brains not being developed enough not to associate ‘I pushed my sister at 7am and here we are, twelve hours later, being punished for it’.

It’s incredibly cruel behaviour to punish a child hours later. It’s meaningless to them, outside of causing them distress. It’s bullying, throwing your weight around because you are Parent-who-must-be-obeyed and they are just puny little child who must be controlled at all times, even if they’re completely miserable.

@updownroundandround

@ Pumperthepumper

P.S I have an ASD child, and your comment of :

''You have a horrible attitude towards children, particularly when you know he has sensory issues.''

is neither true, nor in any way constructive.

And you still advocate delayed punishments and spout nonsense about child development? Of course you do.

I just prefer to sort out behaviour in a way that actually relates to what they've done and when they've done it. Missing out on a tv programme or some other treat doesn't really make them think about what they've done - the next time they are cross and try to hurt their sibling, they won't stop and think "aha, I'd better not hit him as I'll miss out on paw patrol in six hours time"

Some children want everything their way. These are wants not needs, and sometimes a four year olds wants are unreasonable and selfish to the point of having unfair impacts on those around them eg siblings.

He could say the same about you though, if he was capable of that kind of thought process. You decide when he’s to stop playing to tidy up, for example. To you it’s important because dinner is nearly ready and you have to get them to eat before bath time or whatever. To him, it’s important he keeps playing because his dinosaur is just about to take over Gotham city and the game isn’t finished. So he’s not unreasonable to be upset that he has to stop, just because you say so (from his point of view)

Example:
Ds wants to watch go jetters. He gets to choose the first program and chooses this.it is then DDs turn. She wants to choose hey duggee. DS does not want this so kicks off. Distraction etc does not placate him, he continues to scream and shout, spoiling DD enjoying her choice of program.

So if you know he does that, why not let your DD watch her program first? Then he can watch his and you can say ‘great, that’s finished! Let’s go colour in now’ or whatever.

My 3.5 year old can understand delayed reward so I dont believe you that he does not understand delayed punishment.

He was told one morning he could have sweets after tea if he was kind to his sister all day. He reminded us after tea of this.

Its utter balls that they dont understand delayed punishment. They are not goldfish, they have memories, some may just need an adult to remind them of the link between the bad behaviour event and the punishment, but they understand the notion of the consequence.

In my experience, most children, especially boys, are horrible around this age. They have discovered want, me and all those other egocentric worlds, but are not yet developed enough to be able to manage things like you and negotiate!

Look on the bright side. He's not a teenager yet. You will truly know what not liking your child is then!

But honestly - he sounds absolutely normal, if rather unlovable at times. And you sound absolutely normal too! It's ok to be exasperated. This is the age when he needs to be taught boundaries and appropriateness and consequences, and it is just never a simple thing to do. There are no real experts, but you'll muddle through it and come out ok on the other side, just like the rest of us did.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

My 3.5 year old can understand delayed reward so I dont believe you that he does not understand delayed punishment.

He was told one morning he could have sweets after tea if he was kind to his sister all day. He reminded us after tea of this.

Its utter balls that they dont understand delayed punishment. They are not goldfish, they have memories, some may just need an adult to remind them of the link between the bad behaviour event and the punishment, but they understand the notion of the consequence.

No, they don’t. They don’t associate it in the same way as an immediate consequence. It’s just a new fight about something that happened so long ago (to them) that it’s meaningless, and unkind.

Why would you want to deliberately upset them hours later for the sake of following through on some stupid punishment you came up with twelve hours before - just so you don’t lose?

It’s also a bit weird to bribe him to be kind to his sister, and stretch out a reward. I wouldn’t say that’s a very good example of positive reinforcement.

It's simply the next stage in the childs understanding of cause and effect. Something that 4yr old already knows. It's not meaningless or cruel, any more than their understanding of delayed gratification is cruel.

Just think , if you tell your 4yr old at 8am that you will be having a McDonalds for supper because you've got a swimming lesson, there's zero chance that he'll ''forget'' is there ? And he can understand that he's only getting this treat because of the swimming lesson.

And yet you think this same child cannot understand that ''no tv tonight'' is because of what he did that morning ? Yes, he can, though he won't be happy about it.

And this bit ;

''It’s bullying, throwing your weight around because you are Parent-who-must-be-obeyed and they are just puny little child who must be controlled at all times, even if they’re completely miserable.''

is a fiction within your own head I'm afraid.

@updownroundandround

It's simply the next stage in the childs understanding of cause and effect. Something that 4yr old already knows. It's not meaningless or cruel, any more than their understanding of delayed gratification is cruel.

Just think , if you tell your 4yr old at 8am that you will be having a McDonalds for supper because you've got a swimming lesson, there's zero chance that he'll ''forget'' is there ? And he can understand that he's only getting this treat because of the swimming lesson.

And yet you think this same child cannot understand that ''no tv tonight'' is because of what he did that morning ? Yes, he can, though he won't be happy about it.

And this bit ;

''It’s bullying, throwing your weight around because you are Parent-who-must-be-obeyed and they are just puny little child who must be controlled at all times, even if they’re completely miserable.''

is a fiction within your own head I'm afraid.

You’re the one who wrote this:

And above all ALWAYS follow through with the punishment ! It doesn't matter if he's been an angel since the row in the morning, he does not get to watch Paw Patrol that evening.

Bullying behaviour from an adult who supposedly loves him. Still pathetic.

Also, it’s strange that you believe in delayed gratification but not positive reinforcement. If you’re so keen to believe that their development allows them to think ‘x = y even twelve hours later’ then why not offer them a McDonalds 12 hours after good behaviour? Why was your advice to punish, punish, punish instead of reward, if you really believe that to be true?

And it's not about ''being right'', it's about ''being a parent'', which means being loving, kind, reliable, truthful and about helping your child develop the skills they need to be able to thrive in the world.

Learning to obey rules is one of those skills.
learning that there are unwelcome consequences to breaking rules is one of those skills too.

*12 hours after BAD behaviour, sorry. Bribery over punishment, if you like.

Following through with whatever 'punishment/ consequence' is a basic tenet of parenthood I'm afraid. Very basic.

If you say ''If you throw your toy at your brother, you won't get to go swimming'' and then you actually let him go swimming (because he's been good since he threw the toy at his brother), then all you're actually teaching the child is ''it doesn't matter what consequence I threaten you with, if you're good for a few hours, I won't actually do it''

So if you know he does that, why not let your DD watch her program first? Then he can watch his and you can say ‘great, that’s finished! Let’s go colour in now’ or whatever.

You think I didnt try that? Lol. He is 3. He is naturally selfish and his instinct is to kick off if the tv is turned on to anything he does not want.

It’s also a bit weird to bribe him to be kind to his sister, and stretch out a reward. I wouldn’t say that’s a very good example of positive reinforcement.

It worked really well. Over time he learned that when he is kind to her, she becomes fun to play with, and now they have a great relationship sans bribes. Positive reinforcement only works when you have a starting instance of the specific good behaviour you want, to be positive about.

Children are not born socially conditioned to be useful members of society. They have to be taught to put some of their own wants behind things that as a society we need more. Unfortunately, there's little in it for a child to be selfless, so often they have to be taught what behaviour will be accepted and what won't. Some of the behaviour they want to indulge in is fun enough for themselves that all the positive reinforcement in the world will not deter it, and this is where punishment can be needed.

Obedience is underrated on mumsnet but is socially very important to the human race.

@updownroundandround

Following through with whatever 'punishment/ consequence' is a basic tenet of parenthood I'm afraid. Very basic.

If you say ''If you throw your toy at your brother, you won't get to go swimming'' and then you actually let him go swimming (because he's been good since he threw the toy at his brother), then all you're actually teaching the child is ''it doesn't matter what consequence I threaten you with, if you're good for a few hours, I won't actually do it''

It really, really isn’t. Chucking out a non-related stretched-out punishment in the heat of the moment and then refusing to back down so you don’t ‘lose’ is not only ridiculous, it’s also unfair to the child you’re supposed to care about.

Taking away the toy immediately is a natural consequence to that scenario, but a better option (if you know that’s what he’s likely to do) is distracting him with a target to throw the toy at instead of his brother, and turning it into a game. That’s actual parenting.

*distracting him with a target to throw the toy at instead of his brother, and turning it into a game. Thats actual parenting."

Nope, its rewarding behaviour you do not want. He does something unacceptable and he gets:

• your attention
• a fun new game

He learns that if he wants mums attention and for her to play a new game with him,he can chuck a toy at his brother.

Obedience is underrated on mumsnet but is socially very important to the human race.

Obedience is a strange word to use about a child but aside from that, that’s not what you’re teaching him if you delay his punishments, or make his punishments ridiculous and still insist on following through hours later.

You’re teaching him cruelty. You’re not teaching him to be kind to his sister, you’re not examining why he feels the urge to be unkind to her - you’re allowing him to do whatever he likes at first, then punishing him for following his own instincts- which at 3, he can’t control or explain.

And all those poor kids who have been excused from any consequences for bad behaviour (because they've been good for a while) are going to be absolutely traumatized by school rules/ consequences for bad behaviour aren't they ?

I wish you the very best of luck in rearing your DC, because I wouldn't wish any ill on any parent. (but I also pity your DC's future teachers, because you're going to be the ''peach'' of a parent who charges up to school, tearing strips off the teacher, because ''how dare they'' punish your DC ! aren't you ?)

My doctorate and I will leave this thread now, as ''you can't flog a dead horse'' (which means ''there's no point talking to a brick wall'', in case you couldn't understand that either).

OP, I wish you all the best.

Just wanted to reassure you that four really has nothing on terrible twos. My 6 year old has been delightful since 5ish and was hard work at 4.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

*distracting him with a target to throw the toy at instead of his brother, and turning it into a game. Thats actual parenting."

Nope, its rewarding behaviour you do not want. He does something unacceptable and he gets:

• your attention
• a fun new game

He learns that if he wants mums attention and for her to play a new game with him,he can chuck a toy at his brother.

Of course it isnt! In the above scenario you’ve stepped in before the toy is launched - you’ve made a positive distraction, no punishment needed! You could even invent a game involving his brother so he learns how fun his sibling is, instead of bribing him with sweets hours later.

@updownroundandround

And all those poor kids who have been excused from any consequences for bad behaviour (because they've been good for a while) are going to be absolutely traumatized by school rules/ consequences for bad behaviour aren't they ?

I wish you the very best of luck in rearing your DC, because I wouldn't wish any ill on any parent. (but I also pity your DC's future teachers, because you're going to be the ''peach'' of a parent who charges up to school, tearing strips off the teacher, because ''how dare they'' punish your DC ! aren't you ?)

My doctorate and I will leave this thread now, as ''you can't flog a dead horse'' (which means ''there's no point talking to a brick wall'', in case you couldn't understand that either).

OP, I wish you all the best.

Your ‘doctorate’ 😂😂😂

My doctorate and I will leave this thread now

PMSL 🤣