Age DOES affect how tragic death is

[Bumpitybumper]

In the current climate and for obvious reasons, I see a lot of discussion about the average age of people dying from Coronavirus and how it is skewed significantly towards the elderly. Inevitably, this will lead to some claiming that this fact is irrelevant and a life is a life and any death is equally tragic. Talk of amending our approach towards the virus because of the average age of the people dying is shot down quickly. The implication being that any acknowledgement that the loss of an elderly person's life is less significant or tragic than a young person is implying that the elderly are expendable or don't matter.

To be clear, I don't think either of those things BUT I do think most people tend to find death more tragic and significant the younger the victim. My theory is that death is an inevitability for all of us, but there is a presumed "normal" lifespan and therefore young people that have died are viewed to have had less opportunity/experience and lost more years.

The ultimate test I believe is that if there was an emergency (e.g. burning building) most people would opt to save the younger person over an elderly person if only one could be saved. I think if children are involved then again most people would rescue them as a priority over adults.

So AIBU to think age does affect how we perceive death?

@Sophoa

I get what you mean. When my FIL died in a car accident as a fit and healthy 64 year old, it devastated the entire family and led to his 89 year old mum (DH’s DGM) dying three months later of a broken heart (she appeared to give up).

Two years later, my DH’s DGF died at 92 in the care home where he had been since his wife’s death. He’d been wanting to die ever since his wife and son had died. So his death wasn’t tragic at all; the tragedy had happened two years before when my FIL died in the car accident.

So I do understand the point, hence I voted YANBU. What I don’t like is the ageism seeping into this, lumping all of us who are vulnerable in the same group, as if none of us matter. We’re not a monolithic group, and we’re not all ‘waiting for God’, or expecting to die anytime soon.

I'm actually going to rephrase my post, I would save my family member from a burning building over someone I didn't know, regardless of age.

If it was my Mum or Dad or Uncle then yes I would.

Re-read the quote. Would you save someone older or frailer before your mum or dad?

There's a difference between 'tragic' and 'sad' though. People can be just as slayed by grief for a beloved older person, while realising its not a tragedy as such. Also I think you need to be careful not to start thinking it's a sliding scale of comparison. You know, he was 63, she was only 48 sort of thinking. Both of those would be a cruel cutting short.

@MilkTwoSugarsThanks

If it was my Mum or Dad or Uncle then yes I would.

Re-read the quote. Would you save someone older or frailer before your mum or dad?

I did and I rephrased it - see my last post

Of course it does. I have lost all my grandparents. I miss them, and it was sad when they went, but it is fully expected, and they were all over 80 when they died. I fully expect that in the next 20 to 30 years my parents will die. I am dreading it, and it will undoubtedly be awful, but it is part of life that none of us can get away from. I do not however expect to lose any of the younger members of my family, and should any of them die before me it would be a massive tragedy.

I agree. My father died in his 80s. I miss him, I cried and grieved. And I still cry sometimes when I think of him. But to be honest, I wasn't devastated by grief. Because he had had a long happy life.

If he had died in his 50s when I was still a teenager, I would have been traumatised, not just a bit down about it. I didn't love him any less by the time he was 80, but I felt able to accept that he had reached the end of his life.

@Yesyoudoknowme

YABU - one thing I have realised as I have got older is death affects you more. Maybe it's the fact that it is much closer as you age. My DH lost his DF when he (the DF) was 52. DH was a teenager and it didn't affect him as much as when he will (eventually) lose his mother. Most comments on here are about losing grandparents - you wait until it is your parents. The longer you have them the worse it is. So for all those who are saying 'they've had their life' wait until you lose someone who has been a constant in your life for 60+ years. It may affect how OTHER PEOPLE view it, but not if it is a close family member.

I wasn’t going to post on this thread. It’s a mixture of posts about grief, lifespan, care of the elderly and the objective measure of a tragedy and I had no idea what I could or would say frankly. But this post has really upset me. I lost my mother as a teenager and it totally screwed me and my brother up. He spent years abusing drink and drugs, and now in his 40s is still paying the economic price for never having a steady job or finishing his education. I had an eating disorder which I still feel the effects of today and severe depression; years of having no one to care about me, no one to call when life gets shitty, Christmas Day alone. My father died when I was in my 30s and I possibly cried once. He had spent my life letting me down and I’d been ‘mourning’ him for decades.

You can’t say that the impact of a death and the meaning of it is greater just because you’ve know the person longer. Losing a parent young is life changing and devastating. I’m sure losing a much-loved one later in life is incredibly painful - I will never know - but you can’t say that it’s more painful than losing a parent at another age - it’s different in nature, but grief comes from love, not age.

But OP asked if young people dying is more TRAGIC and of course it is. Children and young adults not living a full life is much more tragic than someone dying at an old age.

Yes. When my mum dies (im going to assume and hope that she dies at an old age) it will devastate me and her husband (if still alive). My relationship with my mum is so close and I can't imagine life without her.

It isn't the same as my children's dad dying though. He never got to see them grow into young men, he didn't get the celebrate the milestone birthdays, meet their first girlfriend, watch them leave education. He won't see them get married or have children.

He has missed so much and so have they. That is tragic.

That doesn't mean that when someone old dies that it isn't devastating for their loved ones, of course it can be, but it is not tragic.

X-posted there PinkSparklyPussyCat

I would save my family member from a burning building over someone I didn't know, regardless of age.

Most people would. But would you save the random oldest frailest person or the random toddler?

I have issue with the statement from a previous poster that to this would be "utterly shit" and "ageism".

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

I'm actually going to rephrase my post, I would save my family member from a burning building over someone I didn't know, regardless of age.

This is how I would feel.

Years ago on here someone said they'd save their dog before a stranger's baby. I still can't get my head around that.

I think YABU, OP.

All deaths are tragic, avoidable deaths more so. A lot of Covid deaths of the elderly were avoidable with the right measures in place. We should not sacrifice the elderly so the young can go back to "normal".

Society is judged by how it looks after its weakest citizens.

I do think that if covid as an illness was mostly killing young children the level of panic would be of the scale (and understandably so). I also imagine it would be much much harder to find people to work in hospitals etc if this was the case. For example one of my friends is a cleaner in a hospital, she has worked all through this year. She said she found it very difficult particularly in March/April/May when there was a lot of uncertainty around the disease. This despite her and her partner being moderate risk (not old but partner in 50s, BAME etc). I think it would be a much harder decision if doing that work was putting your own children at risk.
Thats not to say that the lives of older people don't matter. Also, one at risk group is people in their 50s/60s - they are not at as much risk as older persons but are at more risk than people in their 30s and crucially, are usually still working/bringing up children so are more likely to be exposed. Actually its more problematic for them as, in my grandparents case, the very old sadly don't have many years left as it is so the cost/benefit of isolating for a year or more is different, compared to someone in their 50s who should be able to expect many more years of life.

My father died when he was 40, it was tragic and my mother was left with 3 children to bring up. It affected us financially as well as emotionally.

My mother died when she was 79, it affected me more than my father dying, the fact I had no parent, the fact that I had an adult relationship with her and we were very close.

They could both still be alive, both would be younger than Captain Tom if they had lived but my father has been dead for nearly 60 years and my mother for nearly 20. As far as I'm concerned they were both tragedies and I don't think anyone can make that decision for me.

@Yesyoudoknowme

YABU - one thing I have realised as I have got older is death affects you more. Maybe it's the fact that it is much closer as you age. My DH lost his DF when he (the DF) was 52. DH was a teenager and it didn't affect him as much as when he will (eventually) lose his mother. Most comments on here are about losing grandparents - you wait until it is your parents. The longer you have them the worse it is. So for all those who are saying 'they've had their life' wait until you lose someone who has been a constant in your life for 60+ years. It may affect how OTHER PEOPLE view it, but not if it is a close family member.

Extrapolating that view, it would be easier to lose a parent at 8 and easier still as a toddler.

I lost my father when I was a teen, what you are saying is pure bollocks. The longer you have them the worse it gets pure crap. And more crap. I needed my father alive when I was a child far more than I need my mother now that I’m a fully fledged adult and her an old woman.

Agree OP. My MIL died from covid, it wasn’t tragic because she was 84. She inevitably would have died of something soon. What was tragic, was that she died without her children around her, not understanding at all why they weren’t there to comfort her.

So yeah, I agree age can make a different but I don't think its as simple as "Covid isn't so bad because it mostly just kills the old" (Im not saying thats what you said). Its also interesting because it then brings up debate around what "old" is and it turns out people have very different ideas.

You can’t say that the impact of a death and the meaning of it is greater just because you’ve know the person longer. Losing a parent young is life changing and devastating.

Yep, that post got me too.

YANBU.

DP is a firefighter, but quite newly qualified so fortunately hasn’t lost anyone yet but he said if you knew you could only save one person between two, you would innately go for the one who had a better quality of life ahead and this is a conversation that came up a lot in his training.
Losing anyone is tragic and I dread the day he loses someone on shift but I think he would feel it a lot worse if he lost a child or a young Mother or Father in comparison to an elderly person.

I think it's age and circumstances that can make a death tragic or not - just in my opinion of course.

Both of my grandparents died well into their 90s within 6 months of each other. They'd lived very full lives and had family who loved them and visited often. I held my grandpas hand as he died. It was sad as they'd been a huge part of my life growing up, it wasn't tragic though.

An elderly person who has suffered with illness and loneliness for some time then dying alone is more tragic to me.

However I don't think it compares to when a child dies - in the summer in Edinburgh a mum and 3 year old boy were hit by a car mounting a kerb. The boy died. It really rocked me, not least because I have a 4yo son and I feel desperately sad for the poor mother. That really was a tragedy. I always tell my son if he's next to me holding my hand on the pavement then he's safe, that poor woman probably told her son the same thing

I know of someone who died recently in a care home; very elderly; had dementia, o covid test or symptoms ever. I have been led to understand the family had to argue hard for reason for death "with Covid" not to be put on the death certificate. Due to loosening of regs around covid deaths, there is I am advised significantly less paperwork and reporting if covid is on the death certificate than if not. That casts an entirely different light on the care home situation if it is true. Shame I can't do @MattHancock.

The longer you have them the worse it gets pure crap

Maybe this is why my drama queen much older sister thinks that losing our father was so much more stressful for her than for me.

What is the cut off? Age doesn't equal poor health and lack of enjoyment.

Some people will be 60 with loads of health issues, lonely and poor quality of life but they aren't 'old' whereas some can be 75, healthy, fit, loads of hobbies, surrounded by family and happy. It's not always about age.

For all those calling ageism - you're right, humans are immortal.

Age is not the only factor in how tragic someone's death is to the people left behind. my dad died in his 30s when I was very young and that was very tragic and it took me a long time to recover but the circumstances of his death being sudden but the fact he could have been treated made the situation worse.

My dad's parents were in their 70s when they died, yes they had longer lives but I still grieved terribly for them when they died as they had been such a source of strength and support for me after losing dad and again them dying from what would have been a treatable infection and cancer if they would have spotted it sooner.
My other grandad before his again too late diagonsed cancer had a lot left he could have do with his life at 80 and his fitness levels were better than someone quite a bit younger before the chemotherapy, so to me it still felt tragic.

YANBU - when my Mum died years ago in her 70’s I was devastated and then I lost my dad in his 80’s and I experienced the same sort of grief. However, in the depths of my sadness it was comforting to know that they had enjoyed a long happy, fulfilled life.

However, a year after my Dad, my sister died. She was only 50 and her death hit me on a whole new level. Children are supposed to outlive their parents - it’s the natural order of things but I still can’t get over the loss of my sister and best friend who I thought I would grow old with.