Age DOES affect how tragic death is

[Bumpitybumper]

In the current climate and for obvious reasons, I see a lot of discussion about the average age of people dying from Coronavirus and how it is skewed significantly towards the elderly. Inevitably, this will lead to some claiming that this fact is irrelevant and a life is a life and any death is equally tragic. Talk of amending our approach towards the virus because of the average age of the people dying is shot down quickly. The implication being that any acknowledgement that the loss of an elderly person's life is less significant or tragic than a young person is implying that the elderly are expendable or don't matter.

To be clear, I don't think either of those things BUT I do think most people tend to find death more tragic and significant the younger the victim. My theory is that death is an inevitability for all of us, but there is a presumed "normal" lifespan and therefore young people that have died are viewed to have had less opportunity/experience and lost more years.

The ultimate test I believe is that if there was an emergency (e.g. burning building) most people would opt to save the younger person over an elderly person if only one could be saved. I think if children are involved then again most people would rescue them as a priority over adults.

So AIBU to think age does affect how we perceive death?

@Hardbackwriter

I don't understand why so many people, on both sides of this argument, are conflating 'the death of an 85 year old is not as tragic as the death of a 25 year old' to 'the death of an 85 year old doesn't matter'. They're not the same statement at all and I think one is true and the other isn't.

@Hardbackwriter - I agree.

You are right - a car accident involving a young family (as was last week) is perceivably more tragic than an 85 year old who has a fatal car crash. But it's dreadfully sad for the family in both circumstances and I'm not downplaying the grief the family of the older person in my examples feel.

I've been exposed to deaths more than most because of my work and and hope (and I'm told) I'm professional, friendly and make a difficult situation as easy as it can be but I do struggle with the youngsters, thankfully rare but I'll never forget one mothers grief hugging the coffin to stop its exit from church (I admit we had quite a few stiff drinks after that one and lovely landlady who we know well let us leave our cars secured in the car park overnight) even thinking about it upsets me whereas I had one today who I knew very well but he was old, it was his time I suppose, not the same.

well everyone dies attitude that was such a part of humanity for millenia Did people really have that attitude. My granny was born in the 19th century. She had a child who died, well she had still births as well but she had one who died as a toddler. She grieved him for the next 70 odd years. She never celebrated Christmas (that's when he died) she always bought us presents but we never saw her Christmas week as she wouldn't see anyone.

I think covid does alter the discussion. My mum (70) and my friend's son (19) both have had covid. Whilst I would be devastated if my mum died from it or complications resulting from it, I can see that the effects on my friend's son would be more worrying.

@ancientgran. Perhaps a “familiarity” with death is a better way to describe it i.e. in earlier times, it was common to have a family member or friend die while you were growing up. For me, it’s shocking to think that I would’ve probably lost at least one child 100-150 years ago- but it wasn’t unusual then.

It doesn’t make it less sad, those generations simply had to deal with it, because it happened so often. We’re incredibly lucky.

32Inastatus. My dad and sister died same week. I loved and miss him but can cope with his death. Hers I will never ever get over. Hugs. X

People dying is normal. Senicide isn’t.

Haven’t RTFT but @Pickypolly - your reply at the top of the thread was so touching. Thank you for the work you do

I find the claim that people think of the old, or those with health vulnerabilities, as "expendable" really odd.

It's that word specifically, as if anyone is saying "oh well, we can get along without them, no great loss".

It's really not about that, in fact I would say that I think each person is deeply precious and worthwhile. But at the same time, it's a matter of understanding that we are all going to be expended, we are all going to die. Whether we like it or not, it is completely unpreventable, and if we think somehow we can prevent death, we are living in a foolish dream.

And what causes people to die - well, diseases, degeneration of the body by age, accidents that leave us damages. All the things that make us vulnerable. That's what being in a vulnerable category actually means - your chance of dying is higher than that of someone who does no have that vulnerability.

Typically as we age we start seeing people in our peer group die as we get into our 50s/. Maybe only one or two, someone succumbs to an illness they had in youth, they have a heart attack, cancer. A few more in your 60, and then into the 70s you get a bit more and so on. Some will remain healthy and active, through much of that time, but by the time someone is in their late 90s most of their peers will be gone. Because as we age, more and more vulnerabilities come to the fore.

If the idea with covid or anything else is to somehow create a situation where the vulnerable aren't in fact more vulnerable than anyone else - how exactly does that work? Saying we recognise that they are more at risk, that more will die, that we can expect that, does not mean we think they are expendable. It's just a recognition that everyone dies and the more vulnerable are likely to do so sooner.

@AmICrazyorWhat2 Perhaps a “familiarity” with death is a better way to describe it i.e. in earlier times, it was common to have a family member or friend die while you were growing up. For me, it’s shocking to think that I would’ve probably lost at least one child 100-150 years ago- but it wasn’t unusual then.

It doesn’t make it less sad, those generations simply had to deal with it, because it happened so often. We’re incredibly lucky.

Well I know I call myself ancient but I didn't realise how out of touch I am. As a child I lost two uncles, a baby cousin, my grandmother and my father, that was all before I was a teenager. Do most people really reach adulthood never having lost someone? My kids lost 2 grandparents before they hit 18 and the other two were dead before they were born. Maybe my family are just very unlucky.

Just thought I also lost an aunt before I was an adult.

I remember thinking that parents in the past must have somehow not bonded as much with their infant dc, since it was so common to lose several as small children Obviously I was just thinking this to avoid the awfulness of how it would really be. I read a letter someone had written to the infants they had lost and it was so heartfelt and full of grief. She felt it every bit as much as a "modern" parent, even if she had a higher probability of losing a child the pain of it wasn't less.

By the time I was 18 I had lost all my grandparents, an uncle and a parent.

@Iggi999

I remember thinking that parents in the past must have somehow not bonded as much with their infant dc, since it was so common to lose several as small children Obviously I was just thinking this to avoid the awfulness of how it would really be. I read a letter someone had written to the infants they had lost and it was so heartfelt and full of grief. She felt it every bit as much as a "modern" parent, even if she had a higher probability of losing a child the pain of it wasn't less.

There is an argument amongst historians about this issue. There are those who maintain that in the past (and we’re talking 18th century and before) people did care less about each other because of the risk of death, but after the early modern period this changed - it’s described as the ‘growth of affect’. Other say that there is plenty of evidence that this is untrue. It’s really interesting. I am in the latter camp.

My DCs grandparents have all said quite vehemently that they are glad COVID affects their age group more than their grandchildrens’.

I had a friend die recently in an accident. My friend was young (under 40), fit and healthy.

I have known two people commit suicide in their early 20s.

I have lost my grandparents in their 80s/ 90s and a close family member in their 70s after a lifelong battle with addiction.

The former upset me way more than the latter.

Most animals protect their young. That's an fairly universal instinct in mammals I think.

The idea that the human race should, due to ageism, not feel any differently about children dying than the elderly just seems really bizarre to me.

That's the honest way I feel.

If my children died it would be just, different. To my parents dying.

I really don't understand the arguments otherwise.

@Accidentalaccountant - the same week, jeez I’m so sorry and I’m sorry that you know how losing a sister feels. Yes, I miss my parents terribly, think of them all the time and am sad they are not here to see their grandchildren, but I still grieve for my sister. It was very difficult a couple of years ago when I reached the age she was when she died. I was never meant to be the older one 😢

My kids lost 2 grandparents before they hit 18 and the other two were dead before they were born. Maybe my family are just very unlucky

Same with my family. I lost two grandmothers and two uncles before 18. One grandmother was only 70 and I’ve always felt terribly sad that she shouldve lived a lot longer . One uncle was in his late 40s and the other in his 50s. Both my parents lost their dads as children. The worst was my cousin in his early thirties died last year. And his death is something I cant come to terms with. If he was suffering from a terminal illness I would understand, if it was an accident I would understand. But no he just felt unwell and went into a coma and died same day. I never had the chance to see him much, he lived abroad. My grandma also had a stroke and died the next day. Deaths happen a lot in my family and always so very quickly. My aunt had to endure the pain of her dad dying as a child, her mother, sibling and now young son.

I don’t care what people say but age has a lot of bearing. When you’re old you’ve lived your life and for most have children. Cousin died without having any children so it just seems like a waste of a life. My aunt is all alone looking after her ill husband. Whilst all of us, including her other child are in a different county.

Ive found it hard to come to terms about my grandmother and uncles death. But the death of my cousin has overridden everything that I feel so stupid for being so devastated that uncle and grandma died.

I often wonder that too, how on earth they coped with losing so many children. I think possibly the answer falls a little between both camps- they felt it just as we do, but coping mechanisms were different.

I remember back in the mists of my dissertation reading a letter written by a parent who had lost their nine year old daughter in about 1670. It was pretty much exactly as you'd expect, they were floored with grief. I honestly don't know how you lose child after child and carry on.

On saying that, and kind of going back to what I was saying earlier, quite possibly they comforted themselves with the thought that a child didn't suffer - you read that a lot in Victorian novels, lots of references to the dead person being spared the pains of living, now they're in heaven safe and all that.

The combination of a more religious society, and a daily life that was fucking brutal for most people, perhaps acted as some sort of comfort. I hope it did, anyway. If you have to watch your children wither and die by inches in front of you, due to starvation and cold, and if you're religious, perhaps you really could believe they were somewhere safe and warm and you'll see them again. I simply can't think my way into that mindset, I'm not religious at all and the safest and warmest place for my children will always be at home with me, but no doubt I'd feel differently if we were all riddled with tuberculosis and stuffed inside one damp cold room

Absolutely agree @trixiebelden77. You can’t weigh one death against another.
The impact of that persons death to the people who are left behind is what matters.

@ancientgran. I suppose I wasn’t really thinking of grandparents as yes, most people do lose at grandparents as a child. I imagine losing middle-aged relatives is less common now - I know my Dad lost an aunt and uncle ( in their 40’s) who would definitely have survived today.

I've often been very sad when elderly people die but I can't imagine finding the death of anyone past middle age tragic unless it happened in very unusual circumstances (e.g. murder). Even then I wouldn't find it a tragedy so much as a great wrong, a thing that needed avenging.

I notice this shift in my thinking about my own life, too. I'm 41 and have young children, so am very keen not to die! But I don't think I would feel for myself that it was tragic if I died soon. I've not had a long life (yet!) but it's been full. In my mid-30s, before my own parents had died, I clung to life in a different way. Processing their deaths has involved coming to terms with the fact that I will die too, and that parts of my remembered past are now sealed and gone, historical, remembered only by me.

You can't weigh up one specific death against another - but it would be truly cruel to pretend that the passing of a dementee of 98, in pain and with not the slightest idea they are dying, isn't a relief for everyone who loves them.

Until medicine makes advances that guarantee quality of life to the very old, including curing nature's most stomach-turning ageing diseases, it's cruel and stupid to promote life at all costs.

[quote AutumnSummersBuffysCousin]@ReallySpicyCurry that is the best post I have read about this whole situation for a very long time.[/quote]
@ReallySpicyCurry
^This
100%

Really spicy curry I also think that a lot of those past narratives are not driven by the women.

No contraception. Bearing lots of children. Little voice in society etc.

How often do we hear their voices and narratives?

To grow and birth a child has always been a big deal. IYSWIM.