Surgeon has refused to operate on litigious patient

[justasking111]

Long story, friends OH had hip op. all went wrong afterwards infection set in was in hospital three months on iv antibiotics, when home had antibiotics, further surgery needed. Fast forward a few months surgeon has refused to do a further op. because my friend an expert HR person had logged each call, e mail so thoroughly with the hospital admin. and surgeon challenging them when they bull shitted, that the result is he is on morphine which the surgeon will not prescribe will have to go to GP. Now patient is in his fifties not elderly with no prospect of any kind of care. He is going to die isn`t he.

My question is is it reasonable if you question the medical system is it ok to just be kicked to the curb.

AIBU he should be kicked to the kerb
YANBU he should get the op.

I've read the whole thread now. The initial post was unclear. I thought he had surgery it hasnt helped and wants more surgery to rectify his pain. Infection happens and sometimes skin grafts for wounds and anti biotics dont help. High protein diet exercise and a healthy life should help

Things go wrong with bodies. It's not ususlly the surgeons fault - sometimes, but rarely. This is some kind of bacteria and sadly bacteria is introduced in many ways. Wounds don't heal for many reasons including taking medication, smoking, drinking etc too. No one can predict your recovery.

And unfortunately mistakes do happen and they happen everywhere and it's not possible to avoid them completely. It might be a nurses mistake or something else completely.

And the surgeon is within his rights to refuse business from soneone he doesn't think he can help and who will sue him for trying. Customers who start gathering evidence early on think they are being clever - but that then means they become a liability. If I was that surgeon I would t touch him with a barge pole.

He might well be an arrogant prick, or useless, or even downright incompetent- or he could be not at fault at all. Your friend needs to stop thinking the world is one big HR dept. You can't report everything that goes wrong - the world isn't going to revolve around you telling on someone. The surgeon has agency and is exercising it.

There is not enough information on which to make a judgement.

You sound extremely biased. All surgery carries risk, it doesn't mean someone has done something wrong. A doctor is well within their rights to advise you see another surgeon if the doctor patient relationship is not working.

Baroness Cumberlege. interviewed recently on B.B.C radio 4 on the publication of her report, advised nobody should have any contact with N.H.S without a witness making notes and ideally recording. That is her own policy, after a lifetime investigating N.H.S. scandals, and the last two years concentrating on taking evidence all over the country on two particular issues. She says N.H.S. is not fit for purpose, has it's staff, not patients, as it's focus for existing, and does nothing to protect it's victims . Of course, individual staff, especially front line, frequently do their best, beyond call of duty. But ignoring and endangering patients is inbuilt in the system.

There is a huge risk of further complication if they operate with a current on going infection- it's not as simple as whip it out and start again. Sadly, some ops do have complaications some are human error, and some are just the risk we take when getting any kind of procedure- that's why you have to consent for it. I'm sorry your friend is in the category where there has been an issue, but if they have been (possibly illegally)? Recording calls and harassing staff, regardless of them trying to explain, then it does make it hard to continue a health relationship. The extent of the bone infection may make surgery impossible ever- and the hospital will not prescribe morphine- that's done via the GP to ensure that the source is only one doctor, and they are monitoring the amount he is on. If the bone is necrotic- it won't support a revision. Has he had a ref real to the chronic pain team at the hospital? It sounds as if maybe they could at least help him with how to go forwards.

20mum,

let's see a reference for what you've just stated, please so we can see the context for a conservative peer with an arguable personal interest in NHS privatisation discussing anything beyond the remit of a review into the three problematic treatments.

socialinvestigations.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-case-of-baroness-cumberlege-why.html

Surgery can go wrong. You can also die mid/after the most simple operation. It says so in the form you sign to agree to accept the risks and to proceed with the operation.

Was it a hip replacement? Has the hip been removed?
I've known patients who have had to have the prostheses removed until the infection clears up. Some have taken a year and some have never been able to have the hip or knee replacement back in as it has triggered infection each time
It isn't necessarily the surgeons fault. Some people are more prone to infection

@justasking111

The call logging, e mails only started after the operation went wrong and he spent three months in a hospital on an iv. It was the follow up care that was logged. 57 is no age for all this to go so spectacularly wrong, to see a fit man reduced to an invalid who is now refused further surgery is heartbreaking. It is not the same surgeon but it is the same health board.

No-one has been sued but there has been a cover up. Our health board has form for this.

So the final sentence of this quote is where you lost any sympathy or support from me!

I had a relatively minor operation on Friday, which though under GA was supposed to be in & out same day. I have had plenty of GAs in the past including earlier this year, and have never had a single issue. However in this case I had exceptionally low O2 sats (not enough Oxygen getting in), then I started to cough up little blood clots. Eventually got home 2.5 days later, and now luckily fine. Speculation is that the tube caught something on it's way in.

So in theory "something went wrong". In practice, one of those things just happened and the very senior consultant anesthetist who happened to be on that day was in no way "at fault". My biggest problem over all that time was all the medical staff being so protective & careful that I couldn't go home.

What do you mean by health board op are you in the UK?

Infection are unfortunately a normal if rare complication of surgery. I'm not sure if anyone is to blame or if the surgeon is rather than the team providing care. My partner works in health care regulation and the hospital just refusing treatment because a patient is a pain in the arse doesn't ring true. There are lots of inspections, regulations and rational for treatment decisions.

Sonthe idea they will just leave him to die because they don't like him is far fetched. But if you and he feel this way then you can complain to the health ombudsman, get advice from health watch or speak to the ccg who commission the service.

Fellow HR expert here. If anyone needs any medical advice, ask away. In the first instance, try one of the following:

A) ignore it, it will eventually go away
B) chop it off
C) try E45
D) buy a replacement

@Plussizejumpsuit - N Ireland, Scotland & Wales have Health Boards rather than Trusts. Different Ombudsman as well for each devolved country.

@purpledagger

Fellow HR expert here. If anyone needs any medical advice, ask away. In the first instance, try one of the following:

A) ignore it, it will eventually go away
B) chop it off
C) try E45
D) buy a replacement

I’m frantically flicking through my CIPD magazine here.

Are those your go to HR solutions to staffing issues too, purple?

Yep - its all transferable skills.

I bet that surgeon wishes they'd trained as a HR professional instead of wasting their time studying for c14 years though to be fair, HR professional involves a lifetime of learning.

Firstly, infections are a risk of surgery. This will have been explained to him prior to surgery and will have been part of the consent process. This can happen to the best of surgeons and despite all appropriate risks being taken. Deep-seated infections can be, and frequently are, very difficult to treat and sometimes require prolonged and repeated antibiotic treatment. unfortunately, in a small number of cases, treatment with antibiotics (and sometimes washouts etc) is not successful or only partially successful. In these cases further surgery is very often not an option- runs the risk of making matters worse or even causing death.

So, it seems likely that the phone recordings etc are nothing to do with the refusal for surgery. A dr will stop treating a patient who is making a complaint about them- certainly whilst that process is ongoing. And unlikely to restart treating as clearly the dr-patient relationship has broken down. Appropriate treatment should be provided by another doctor though. Again, this suggests that another surgeon has looked at your friends case and has concluded that further surgery is not a good idea as risks outweigh any potential chance of success. This should have, and I strongly suspect will have, been explained to your friends husband. If you disagree with the outcome, you are entitled to a second opinion (or is this other surgeon your 2nd opinion?). If you are still unhappy, you can ask for a transfer of your care to an alternative team (another hospital or health board) but this may not be granted.

I think the recording etc, whilst certainly going to cause issues of trust/suspicion re motives/worries about being difficult or complicated patients to health professionals treating him (especially if recording done without their knowledge and discovered later- there are procedures that must be undertaken so both sides have a copy of recordings to prevent editing etc), has not meant that treatment has been withdrawn. It may be that it has made staff very cautious- absolutely by the book, no risks (even ones the patient may be pushing for) in case something doesn’t go to plan.

For anyone getting an operation - infections and delayed wound healing happen when Someone smokes
Drinks
Drinks coffee
Takes medication (particularly things like morphine or amphetamines for adhd). If you can die from an overdose it's toxic to a degree. Sleeping pills even 'harmless' meds out a load on your body.
Doesn't eat the right food eg a ton of fruit, veges and lean protein.

It's amazing how much difference these things make. If your friend can get off the morphine he might heal. Currently he's a low level 'drug addict' and we all know what happens to their skin, teeth and overall health.

He needs to come off all meds, stuff fresh fruit and veg into him along with things like home made chicken soup and not touch a drop of alcohol or I hate to say it caffeine.

I would also take a very high dose vitamin c from a good brand. I use solgar to ward off colds (catch them before they start) often taking up to 5 grams a day (and not when I don't need it as your body stops using it). I've bought very expensive packet vitamin c and it was no different. Also very high quality FRESH fruit juice is at least very bioavailable in my experience (or world at stopping colds very fast).

Don't get me wrong I'm not a teetotal vegan health nut (sex drugs and rock n roll is more my thing) but if I was 57 and in this state? I'd do it. I had a would once that didn't heal - until I stopped everything. I also slathered it in Manuka honey. I didn't take the vitamin c and wished I had done early as well as stopping all meds much earlier. It was medication that caused the majority of the problem,

@purpledagger

Yep - its all transferable skills.

You need to come and do my clinic this morning!

The grammar in your op is all wrong and confusing, and you haven’t been able to explain in any clarity what the issue with the surgeon actually is, so I don’t think anyone can give you much advice.

From your later posts, it sounds as if this man has a necrotic skin infection potentially resulting from the operation, which may well not be the surgeons fault but simply of those unfortunate things that are a risk of any surgery. It’s likely they want to get the infection under control before any further surgery is undertaken.

I think it’s quite ridiculous to suggest they are leaving him to die, and without any particularly coherent reasoning as to what the fault of the hospital actually is, I think you are being unreasonable.

purpledagger You forgot the classic 'take two paracetomol, get a good night's sleep and come back in two weeks if it's not better'.

Likewise solves a lot of employment issues too.

Refused because they are litigious yet they haven't even talked to a solicitor?
What are you blithering about?