AIBU to think that we will never have equality while..

[iamruth]

We continue to treat men and/or allow them to behave like the inferior/ less responsible parent?

I’m not suggesting all men should start taking unpaid leave all the time etc but if they’re not treated as having nothing the same rights and responsibilities as mothers (clearly I’m excluding DV perpetrators of both secession actually here etc) then how will anything change? We can’t really expect them to have the same responsibilities without having the same rights.

My DH can't wait to reduce his hours to a minimal amount when I go back to work full time after 10 months mat leave. He'll do most of the childcare. In an ideal world I would like to go part time but I earn more and our finances need me to work more. I think it will be a good thing for him to experience doing a lot more childcare, even though he is quite hands on, I don't think he really gets it at the moment. I also hope this will set us up to be more equal as parents in the long run. We have also experienced his work suggesting he gets me to reduce my hours! So, I think the issue may be less about rights and parental leave and more about pay/work. If it was common for women to earn more than partners I bet a lot of childcare responsibility would swap.

Hi OP

I agree. And actually I do think shared parental leave, or at least changing attitudes to it, would be a great start.

Studies actually show that when parents share parental leave the dad does a larger share of childcare and housework etc. Though there is obviously no causation there. But we shared ours, and its something I'm interested in...i think the take up is only 2pc. I always ask friends who are expecting, whether they are going to share it, and in about half these cases the woman out earns the man and say another quarter they earn similar so its not a finance thing...but I only know two other couples who have done it. A lot of the women said they didnt want to give up 'their' leave. So its something they think is their right as a mother rather than as a parent. And not primarily for the baby to bond with its primary caregivers. These in my experience also seem to be the same women who a year or so later, laugh at their 'hopeless' partner and have to get out food for the day when they leave their toddler with their dad as the dad has no idea what they eat, or choose clothes as they dress them inappropriately or end up sitting for hours cuddling their toddler to sleep as they 'only want mum', because their partner has never put the baby to bed as it was their 'job' on maternity leave then they never got out the habit.

If men shared paternity and had equal access to flexible working then women of child bearing age wouldn't be unemployable in certain jobs incase they get pregnant. Women wouldn't be asked different questions in interview. It's also much easier to settle yourself back into the workplace knowing that your baby is at home being looked after and you don't need to settle them into nursery at the same time and deal with the resultant illnesses and sleeping issues at the same time as catching up on missing a year of work.

If women stopped having children, they could turn the tables very quickly!!

I also think companies need to do a lot more to make it culturally acceptable for men to be the equal default parent. In my company some of the senior male managers have started to work a bit more flexibly, take time off for sick kids, condensed hours etc and I think it does lead to a culture shift though there is still a lot to be done...but companies can do it if they want e.g. some give kids sick days (paid time off uo to x days a year if your kid is sick that doesnt come out of your holiday), some give enhanced shared leave, some give extra parental leave etc. I think decent companies should be setting good examples and not trotting out the 'can't your wife do it' lines etc. Unfortunately as most companies are run by middle aged white men, its changing very slowly

@SarahAndQuack I wish I’d known the biology of men changing shitty nappies when mine were small..
Isn’t that why men generate such disgusting smells themselves, to train them up for disgusting nappies? They are more inured to it than women, it’s clearly their biological job. Most septic tank and sewage facility cleaners are men after all.

It never occurred to my dh to not go along to a baby group, but if I did hear a dad say they felt excluded I would agree it must be hard and as I’m someone with a male dominated career would suggest he remember that if he ever notices a team with only one woman on it, that she turns up every day of every week to join in and contribute and baby group was just 45 mins. He has a baby, he belongs there just as much as every woman doing her job in a mostly male team, but doesnt mean it’s always easy.

Yes - plenty of women out there don't give dad's a chance as much as some really lazy men out there not bothering. Like if you don't trust the father of your child to take them out you need to have a good think about that.

@Frazzledme

Yes - plenty of women out there don't give dad's a chance as much as some really lazy men out there not bothering. Like if you don't trust the father of your child to take them out you need to have a good think about that.

That's terrible logic, though.

You choose to have a child with someone, then you take that chance. You don't wait for it to be 'given'.

If your partner doesn't trust you to take your newborn baby out, then it's your job to think why, and how to help. Nature makes new mothers scared so that their babies are protected. It's not hard to think how to try to reassure a scared partner. It's also not impossible to think, is my partner more than usually worried? Is she struggling? Does she have PND?

We need to stop putting the pressure on recently postpartum mothers here. If those mothers' partners would step up and make it clear everything is safe, that would be a start.

If men shared paternity and had equal access to flexible working then women of child bearing age wouldn't be unemployable in certain jobs incase they get pregnant.

Men and women do have the same right to request flexible working.

@SimonJT yes they do legally have the same right but even just in this tiny sample of this thread we can see that, for varying reasons, it isn’t a cultural norm/societal norm for them to do so. Examples of employers saying “can’t your wife do it?” - common, men supposedly not wanting to.... the point is we need a shifting viewpoint. I’m not sure why you are so determined to prove that just because you in your specific circumstances were entitled to take 15 months leave that that is the reality for the vast majority of fathers suddenly.

But women are often turned down for flexible working too. I have 5 female friends who were told they couldn't go part time, and have a couple of male colleagues who are part time. Just because the manager says "can't your wife do it?" Doesn't mean that they would refuse a formal request. My dh has been part time for 7 years now, and no his boss wasn't particularly happy about it at the beginning, but once a formal request has gone in he allowed it. It's worked well for our family.

It is the reality for most parents, but some choose to hide behind excuses not to parent their child/ren.

It isn’t an employers fault if someone chooses not to parent, nor is it the DWPs. Its the person actively choosing not to care for their child. This entire thread is just excusing shit behaviour by blaming someone else for it.

I'd like to see a society where men take time off to be with their children or work PT after mum goes back to maternity leave.

For this, women need to get on the ladder, even if the first few steps before becoming pregnant so they can go back to work ft and becoming the main earner.

So far, I think few men would be willing to do that,even less women. To work, most need to embrace this rather than both fighting to have what they think is the easiest ride.

Men and women make equally good parents. Both are more than capable of feeding their baby (excluding bf!), food shopping for their family, cooking and cleaning the home, remembering doctors appointments, parents evening, buying school shoes, their DC’s favourite activities, foods, friends, colours.

Unfortunately some mothers are their own worst enemy as they believe their partner is incapable whereas in reality there is no difference.

@SimonJT

It is the reality for most parents, but some choose to hide behind excuses not to parent their child/ren.

It isn’t an employers fault if someone chooses not to parent, nor is it the DWPs. Its the person actively choosing not to care for their child. This entire thread is just excusing shit behaviour by blaming someone else for it.

I don't think that's a fair representation of the majority of posts on this thread.

It doesn't take away from every new fathers personal responsibility to step up, make the right decision and maybe go against the curve of the culture we live it, by acknowledging that if the culture was different it would be easier for them to do so. Men need to lead this, from the front. This is their job - to change and fight for change. I believe most women would support them in this fight, but really only men who can make the change.

I’m not entirely sure why any man would want to have children. I think they literally do it to ‘continue the family line’. I can’t see any advantages to it for them. To be fair I can’t see any advantages to women either!

We did SPL (X2) and split things v equally, but it was something we discussed and agreed before even considering children. Yes, some men give the impression they will be a better dad than they are, but often warning signs are there, in guys that refuse to do equal cooking, cleaning etc before children come around. I think expectations really do need to be discussed in advance, rather than people (men and women) presuming.

An interesting point from upthread about men/women waking for a crying newborn. As I said, we split it equally, but at first I didn't wake. My husband would often tend to our baby, feed her and get her back in the bedside crib, and I'd be none the wiser.

I had to literally train myself to wake. Once I did thought and we took alternate nights (and alternated sleeping the baby side) each of us would only wake when on duty. when it wasn't our turn, our subconscious told us that seemingly. It's very odd, but also amazing.

but actually, we could perfectly well expect men to step up, and they'd be biologically equipped to do an awful lot of helpful things that are currently considered part of a woman's 'natural' or 'obvious' role.

Totally agree!

Breasts are not essential to change a nappy, apply teething gel, for bathing, changing clothes, to hold and comfort a baby without feeding...

Whenever I read on here threads by new mums with arsehole lazy dads who are sleeping in the spare room - or even making HER sleep in the spare room because they "can't possibly" be woken in the night OR early in the morning I am furious on that mother's behalf!

It's bullshit!

My grandfathers, dad and ex (while we were together) ALL did night wakings where breastfeeding wasn't the need and 3 of them were serving in the army at the time they were new fathers! My ex in a role that VERY much required him to be alert.

The vast majority of the time the fathers on these threads have office jobs or similar where they damn well could manage!

until I remind him that he’s only equally as important as the other 4 people in this family good for you!

Yes we all have our faults, I can be quite rigid in my thinking and tend to the "my way is the right way" more often than not, but treating your partner/spouse and child as if they are WAY down your list of priorities is not just a fault but a major character flaw.

If it was common for women to earn more than partners I bet a lot of childcare responsibility would swap.

It's a vicious cycle at the moment though. The supposed reason why women are paid less is because they are the ones with large career gaps due to bearing and raising children and the measures to supposedly rectify that aren't working

This is why making men take paid paternity and parental leave would go some way to redress the balance as then ALL parents would be a "burden" on employers.

I agree it's NOT amusing if a dad is incapable of caring for his child without the mother there or micromanaging the prep! That's not funny it's fucking pathetic!

There's a family anecdote in my family where mum was in hospital having my sister and dad was looking after me and my brother, and as dad was in army he didn't even have any relatives nearby to help out. Not an issue in my family but at the same time a colleague of dads was in the same position, but he only had one to care for.

Not only had his wife "had to" Make and freeze meals for the toddler, but also for the grown ass man! Who had an extremely responsible and technical job!

The freezer broke and so the frozen meals lovingly prepared were no good and the guy panicked!

He actually asked my dad to cook for them!

My dad was like "are you for real?! Do you really not know how to make a few days of basic meals for you and your child?!"

Dad actually ended up going to the supermarket with him (and us!) and helping him choose and buy easy to cook (well mostly reheat!) items, and even then once the guy was home he kept phoning my dad to ask what he was meant to do next etc.

They managed in the end, but what a palaver!

Dad didn't find this amusing at all! And told the guy so once that crisis was over, he had a chat with him and also discovered he was basically being utterly useless with the baby too!

Dad ended up teaching this guy how to put a nappy on (most were still using terry squares at this point), how to make a bottle up and check the temperature, and pretty much telling him to damn well step up!

I'm not saying dad was perfect as one of his arguments to the guy was along the lines of the situation not being ideal, as being in the army meant not being near the mothers relatives who would normally have helped a lot more.

But he certainly didn't think the new mums needed to be doing it all!

Dad's the eldest of 5 so 'even though he was a boy' he'd changed a lot of nappies, made up a lot of bottles etc even before he was a dad. There's one family pic where he has the youngest but one in his arms as a baby with his little finger in their mouth as apparently this baby was teething at that time and this was the ONLY thing that calmed them - even other people's fingers didn't work and they were desperate to get this pic for a grandparent or something (I forget why)

It's a sort of family standing joke that dad was better at doing the nappies anyway as he has long fingers so he could hold all the folds in place while pinning plus he had a knack of doing them tight enough to reduce leaking while not too tight as to be uncomfortable resulting in a "screaming wean"

I also think companies need to do a lot more...

They really won't unless they're made to, and even then they don't always behave!

You only have to look at the discrimination that female employees of childbearing age and more so pregnant employees regularly face and that employers get away with.

I'm a fairly assertive type who knows my rights but I've still been subjected to such discrimination myself, but it's often very difficult to prove and the majority of job applicants and employees don't have the time, money or emotional strength to pursue a lengthy legal action.

I can't have any more dc, I've known this since having dd. Not that this is any employers business.

But I've attended a number of interviews where I've been asked (illegally)

My childcare arrangements
WHEN I plan on having a 2nd
My relationship status
How often my child has been sick in the previous year (note NOT how much time I took off work to care for her but literally how often she was sick)
What my contact arrangements with ex were
What HIS job was

This was all in THIS century, and fairly tame.

The stuff I encountered/was asked before having dd, especially as a 20-something was even worse.

Job hunting around the time I was marrying was a bloody nightmare! I ended up not wearing my engagement ring to interviews and once I had a job I didn't wear it at work either and told nobody at work I was engaged until I was leaving.

I'd witnessed the (female) manager treating newly engaged and pregnant staff appallingly.

@Frazzledme But even if the mums are like that then the dads can and should challenge. I have now dx ocd but my ex and I suspected as much at the time. On occasion if I got a bit "helicopter" he'd tell me to relax? reassure me he was doing whatever perfectly safely and that he was absolutely capable of caring for our child. It was difficult at first not only from the ocd but also because I had loads more experience than him, I'd cared for probably over 20 babies by that point, she was the first newborn he'd ever held! But he said himself, he'll never learn if he doesn't get the practice!

Dd used to only settle for me if I did a certain rhythm of bum and back patting, with dad it had to be swoopy rocking similar to how Monica soothes baby Emma in friends in that episode where they foolishly woke her. But she settled for either of us. When she had colic she wouldn't settle for me at all! Only dad would do which was murder as he was back at work by this point (no paternity leave them but he'd kept aside annual leave)

We need to stop putting the pressure on recently postpartum mothers here. If those mothers' partners would step up and make it clear everything is safe, that would be a start. agreed!

Fathers that are dismissive of a mothers concerns aren’t helping! They might be unreasonable anxieties they might not but either way, ridiculing or dismissing is not going to make her less anxious and more trusting.

I’d also had losses before dd and almost lost her on a few occasions plus the birth had been somewhat traumatic ending in an emcs with both lives at imminent risk.

That probably made me more anxious than most mothers too, but my ex got that, and just reassured me.

He’d even find stats and studies to show me doing x was ok, not in a patronising or arguing way but in an “I know you worry about this I’ve found this that might help” way.

@SimonJT they have the same rights to REQUEST but employers can be very inflexible and the law is extremely vague, plus they only get 2 weeks paternity which is no time at all really.

Yes some hide behind excuses, but a lot of people, especially at the moment when a job is a bloody precious thing to have, are afraid to rock the boat, to give employers the slightest excuse to see them as a “bad” employee, especially at a time where there are widespread redundancies and unemployment.

Employers in the uk have appallingly outdated and frankly impractical attitudes to employees. We work among the longest hours in the developed world, presenteeism and attitudes to sick leave etc are dreadful too.

In countries where employers (which have moved on mainly due to legislation) are more flexible, less focused on the no. Of hours a person works and more on productivity, and as a result productivity is generally increased and better quality.

@sarahandquack post partum mums do need a lot of support but their behaviour isn't always the right behaviour and it's not always down to everyone else to work around that. As an example my sil refuses to take her baby out, or for anyone else to - to the point that my niece is 5 months old and doesn't have a pram because my sil won't allow anyone to buy one, won't buy one herself so it's very difficult for anyone to take the baby anywhere. She's been outside the house a handful of times in 5 months. Perhaps my brother isn't the best partner and dad in the world but when he can't take his daughter down the road to the shop it gets a bit difficult doesn't it. He's trying to respect his partners wishes and anxieties. Depression is a real issue but some parents are very controlling and I think my sil falls into that category.

My other sil not dissimilar, she likes her husband being a traditional get home from work and have dinner on the table guy, so it is harder to ask for equality when you're not allowing yourself to be an equal or your partner.

As an aside my first SIL (my brothers partner) nearly registered the baby (4 months down the line..) without my brother, and in that circumstance he has no legal responsibility as a father. So yes I think we have a way to go equality wise.

OP, you're correct. But this is Mumsnet, where you can't speak the truth unless it makes women a victim.

@DrivingMo

OP, you're correct. But this is Mumsnet, where you can't speak the truth unless it makes women a victim.

Sadly I have to agree. You only have to take a cursory look at the threads to realise this is true. The default position for advice regarding ANY break up is for husband to move out and for woman to have the house and kids. This alone needs changing. Not to mention the "man earns more so woman goes part time" fallacy. Up until the birth of a first child women earn the same as men.