AIBU to think that we will never have equality while..

[iamruth]

We continue to treat men and/or allow them to behave like the inferior/ less responsible parent?

I’m not suggesting all men should start taking unpaid leave all the time etc but if they’re not treated as having nothing the same rights and responsibilities as mothers (clearly I’m excluding DV perpetrators of both secession actually here etc) then how will anything change? We can’t really expect them to have the same responsibilities without having the same rights.

@MsAwesomeDragon

Why do you think he wasn’t interested? Genuinely interested. I’ve heard from other dads that they would feel self conscious, not fit in at groups etc. It’s all geared up for women and women’s interests, arguably because society still tells men that it’s not for them

Interesting thread

Off the back of the single mum thread I'm on at the moment I'd say it needs to start with legislation of course

Paid parental leave - if it was paid then given men are generally higher earners it would eliminate the excuse that the household "can't afford" for it to be him that takes time off.

Paid in full on paternity leave and longer than 2 weeks! and not shared!

Employers not having ridiculous hours, non-family friendly working patterns, rolling shifts etc for ANY employee - remove men's excuses!

Penalties for refusing fathers leave when children sick etc

The laws and enforcement around requesting flexibility etc needs to be much better

The laws and enforcement around contact and child maintenance need to be enforced FAR better and the utter pittance that is the current cms calculation needs MASSIVELY increased! A parent with residency who only spent approximately 15% of their income on all their child's needs would rightly be guilty of neglect! Yet it's perfectly acceptable for nrps (mostly men) to do this - that's IF they do, and the vast majority bitch and moan about it!

BUT (and I know I'll get flamed for this but it's true!)

It's also on the MANY other women who

continually put down single mothers and blame THEM for the actions of feckless/deadbeat exes!

Continually perpetuate divisive arguments on such things as wohm and Sahm

Practically throw a fucking medal ceremony whenever a dad as much as ties a kids shoelace!

Unpopular but probably true opinion again here

If we DISadvantage men rather than continuing to strive to empower women more (and generally failing!) then MAYBE we'd start to see some changes?

@MsAwesomeDragon but WHY didn't he want to take the leave?

Because it was unpaid?

Because he thought it was demeaning?

Because he didn't want to do something boring/limiting/tiring/frustrating?

Doesn't sound like a particularly great dad to me. Just not quite as bad as many others. And therein lies the problem.

The dads that do a BIT more than the "bad" dads but still don't do half are overly praised, overly rewarded and overly credited!

@Graphista

Great post and interesting perspectives too. We absolutely should not be putting down single mums or blaming them for their idiot exes (if I’ve come across this way at all I can only apologise). My intention was to say that society as a whole should expect ALL men to be a parent to their children (with some obvious exclusions). I think if this were to happen then it wouldn’t stop anyone being a single parent but any stigmas associated with being a single mum would/should disappear (currently single mum = problem, single dad = hero, right?) why do they get to opt out and why are they viewed in such a good light if/when they do contribute?

@Graphista agree 100% with both your posts

Hi there - more equal parental leave may help a bit, but it's far from the whole story.

I had three children in three different countries with different parental leave laws, the last of them in Britain, and my partner is a very dedicated parent - but in all three countries I experienced countless situations where third parties, everyone from nurses to employers to checkout operators, addressed me as the 'main' parent or expected me, rather than my partner, to take responsibility for 'emergency' childcare (e.g. if a child gets sick and sent home from nursery), or assumed that I'd compromise my career more than my husband because that's just how the cookie crumbles normally, etc.

The OP is absolutely right that men are often allowed to think of themselves as great parents if they do the bare minimum. I had a colleague who would proudly (over work dinners that I felt terribly guilty to even attend) tell me about all the methods he had for keeping his children out of his hair when he was officially in charge of them. He clearly thought him having these tips and tricks proved that he was a committed parent. I was too polite to tell him that I actually like to spend time with my children. I can't imagine a woman expecting to get kudos for spouting stuff like that. I could go on...

It's not change of rights required. It is a change of attitude of the men themselves

He just wasn't interested in babies. He thought she would be absolutely fine going to a child minder (which she was, she was very happy there). Yes, society has told him that babies aren't his job. It wasn't that we couldn't afford it either, we could afford for him to take the unpaid part of the shared parental leave, we just couldn't afford for me to drop down to SMP as that was a bigger drop.

He does do half. Possibly more than half now she's older (she's 10 now, so has much more of a personality and requires less hands on parenting). He's the one who went part time actually, he just did it when she was 3 rather than when she was tiny.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with equality, I'm just saying that it's not that men don't have rights. Men have the rights. If you want them to take them up, you need to make it compulsory rather than optional. Things being set up to cater for women? Well maybe they are, but the degree I did was 99% men, and I just got in with it!!! Men can do the same! So what if they're the only man at toddler group, get on with it!

@MsAwesomeDragon just been discussing with my husband and I agree with you, need to make it compulsory or most of them just won’t do it.

Absolutely was not implying you did come over that way at all op, nobody on this thread has but on the other thread and my personal experience I have been blamed directly and indirectly as a single mum for:

Ex not having contact with dd

Ex not paying maintenance

Ex having more dc after our split with ow/2nd wife (yes really!)

Ex dragging his heels on the divorce

I've also been blamed/vilified for being:

A working full time single mum

A Sahm

A student mum

My parenting decisions are analysed and criticised in a way that mothers in a relationship and worse single fathers are not (and I'm close to several single fathers inc my brother, although he's now remarried)

My child has been ostracised, bullied and discriminated against because her parents aren't together - by other kids and their parents but also by school/teachers, by hcps, by potential employers

currently single mum = problem, single dad = hero, right?

Exactly!

I've never come across anyone in real life that's openly and directly challenged/criticised a deadbeat dad, since I split from ex (oddly when we were together her did) very very few even distance themselves from them.

I HAVE come across in real life people who've congratulated them on dodging or reducing child maintenance payments, avoiding contact arrangements, "don't let the bitch dictate to you, you suit yourself" type attitude is sickeningly prevalent.

I had no indication whatsoever in the 13 years I was with him that he would ever behave the way he has. He is the result of a 2nd marriage himself and his dad treated his ex wife and the children of that marriage well, even without any legislation then making him. Ex was very vocally against deadbeat dads while we were together.

We split on a Monday, by the Thursday it was clear he couldn't be less interested in dd, he was already making excuses not to see her that weekend. Knocked the stuffing right out of me!

I very much regret that I pursued him seeing dd quite stringently - which seems contradictory to the thread - but not because he shouldn't be made to step up, but because it caused dd irreparable emotional harm having intermittent contact with a dad that was barely even indifferent to her, at times antagonistic in his attitude, and then he vanished altogether just as she started high school which was the worst possible time as this was also the time period when her disability was diagnosed and we both had to come to terms with that, this included for dd having to give up much loved hobbies.

He's never even bothered to learn the name of her condition and is extremely dismissive regarding the diagnosis. Bit like those people who "don't believe in allergies"

With hindsight the best thing I could have done for dd was let him go his merry way as soon as he lost interest. But hindsight is perfect vision eh?

@ThreeLocusts oh how I hate being seen by everyone in the world as the default parent as you describe! It feels like it makes me more “mummy” and less myself than my husband ever experiences

@maddening

It's not change of rights required. It is a change of attitude of the men themselves

YY, this.

He just wasn't interested in babies and? Babies aren't interesting to everyone, not even their mothers necessarily that's no excuse not to step up

I do agree with what else you say, they need made to take it and made to step up and not pandered to in terms of ego cos "oh I'm the only man here" so fucking what?! Women have been in situations like that for centuries and they got on with it! It's pathetic to use that as an excuse.

I’m so sorry your ex turned out to be such a dick @Graphista, as you say hindsight is a wonderful thing. Luckily for your daughter you seem to me like you’ve got your head screwed on and (as women do) have stepped up for her. In the years to come when she is older she will realise exactly what you have done for her

My husband is trying to tell me the economy would collapse if we all had the same rights to work flexibly, how would they fill the senior leadership positions? Facepalm 🤦🏼‍♀️

Just to note re babies not always being of interest. I speak as someone who loves babies and has cared for loads including as a nanny and childminder but that's not because I'm a woman it's because I'm a person who loves kids.

This means also that I have of course cared for babies and young children who's mothers didn't especially enjoy that stage of parenting - they still had to get on with it!

Most parents have an age/stage they hate/find deathly boring/irritating, for me it's late primary school age when they THINK they can be independent but instead just mess things up, and when they tend to have an interest they're obsessed with and assume you're as interested as they are! For others it's babies, for others it's teens (another stage I actually love, you can finally have a decent in depth discussion with them, their opinions and attitudes are forming...)

And it's on a day to day or even hour to hour basis too, some days/hours I utterly adored dd and loved being with her, others when she was being annoying or we'd fallen out over whatever... not so much

Men can't seem to cope with kids a lot of the time unless the kids are in an interesting, non annoying, very well behaved stage.

It’s biology though. Biologically babies are meant to be responsively fed from their mothers breast. No amount of equality can change that.

Thank you, my dd is almost 20 now, we've had our ups and downs but I'm very proud of her. She left school "early" for a number of reasons, worked full time for a few years and has now returned to studying, so is a few hundred miles away and I miss her loads.

And good grief your husbands comments!! What on Earth?!

@Graphista

He just wasn't interested in babies and? Babies aren't interesting to everyone, not even their mothers necessarily that's no excuse not to step up

I do agree with what else you say, they need made to take it and made to step up and not pandered to in terms of ego cos "oh I'm the only man here" so fucking what?! Women have been in situations like that for centuries and they got on with it! It's pathetic to use that as an excuse.

This talk of 'interest' makes me think of something a midwife explained to us when DD was newborn.

Lots of studies are done on newly postpartum mothers and their responses to their babies. Studies show new mothers wake up sooner than fathers when babies cry; they show new mothers find babies crying almost painful to ignore; they show some new mothers can even tell their own baby's cry for other baby cries.

But, interestingly, this only holds true if the father is not the primary carer. If the father is the primary carer, he wakes up. He finds the baby crying painful to ignore. Etc.

I think biology is hugely important (and you'd have to be an idiot not to think that breastfeeding plays a big role in what makes you uncomfortable about hearing a baby cry/waking up when it cries). But I think biology also equipped people who aren't recently postpartum mothers to respond to babies. As a society we don't think much about that, but actually, we could perfectly well expect men to step up, and they'd be biologically equipped to do an awful lot of helpful things that are currently considered part of a woman's 'natural' or 'obvious' role.

YANBU OP
Societal expectations and social norms have not changed much and that is truly a barrier to men and women being viewed as interchangeable as parents. It is also the key driver of the sex pay gap because majority of men and women just follow those social norms like lemmings. They think they’re choosing but they’re not really, they’ve been conditioned from birth for a certain choice to feel comfortable and right. All the thoughts that babies prefer their mothers or need them more- conditioning that is self-fulfilling because babies prefer whichever carer spends the most time with them.

Anyway, on a side note. I kept my surname when I married but gave my children my husbands surname. This was not very common in U.K. at the time when we lived there. And what I experienced was a strange reversal. Most people assumed that my husband was a single dad and I was his girlfriend. The children were his obviously because they had same surname as he did, but because my surname was different, I was obviously not their actual mother. So everyone from schools to medical to church to neighbours all treated my DH as the default parent. Even after I’d said, no we are married and these are my children...they’d then assume, I was the step mother and just saying that to be kind...and DH would still be default parent. Strange but just goes to show how powerful social assumptions can be.

@Dinosaurpooped

It’s biology though. Biologically babies are meant to be responsively fed from their mothers breast. No amount of equality can change that.

But why do we think this basic truth should have such a huge impact on social organisation?

Ok, say you have a newborn who needs breastfeeding every two hours. How does that necessitate a situation where only the mother can care for that child?

You might as well say: It's biology though. Biologically babies are meant to shit explosively after their breastfeeding mothers have finished the job and gone to sleep. No amount of equality can change that. Clearly, it is the father's job to change all nappies.

@SarahAndQuack that’s really interesting, we’re so often sold the idea that it’s just natural for women, we birthed them etc..

@Graphista - he’s a fool sometimes, he has a job that is quite “important” but sometimes it gives him a slightly over inflated sense of importance until I remind him that he’s only equally as important as the other 4 people in this family. We all have our faults though, I certainly have many!

@SarahAndQuack I wish I’d known the biology of men changing shitty nappies when mine were small..

Aw dontcha just love it when women get the blame for men being shit

Breastfeeding is just ONE facet of parenting for a relatively short time period even if you do extended feeding.

I bf dd until she was almost 10 months at which point my milk dried on me (medical issue)

My now ex, but at the time husband and he was still a decent and involved parent at this point, did night wakings, early morning, nappy changes, colic pacing, teething pain...

Absolutely no reason why bf alone means he can't be an involved and practical parent