AIBU to think that we will never have equality while..

[iamruth]

We continue to treat men and/or allow them to behave like the inferior/ less responsible parent?

I’m not suggesting all men should start taking unpaid leave all the time etc but if they’re not treated as having nothing the same rights and responsibilities as mothers (clearly I’m excluding DV perpetrators of both secession actually here etc) then how will anything change? We can’t really expect them to have the same responsibilities without having the same rights.

@SarahAndQuack so shouldn’t we ask why and how to change that because all the evidence shows that it’s better for women if they take that leave. Why is it not seen as the best option/a good move? What in our society is wrong so they don’t think they are as much of a parent/needed as much by their child?

Which comes back around to what rights they don't have? The woman in that situation cannot legally unilaterally decide to take baby off to another country. Dad can stop her. And I don't believe that society thinks that morally she should be able to?

@Kaiserin that’s so disappointing. If more men asked would it be normalised?

[quote iamruth]@BewareTheBeardedDragon

But the point is why should men step up to the same responsibilities if they don’t have the same rights?

I wouldn’t step up to the same level of responsibilities as my boss but not have the same right of pay, pension, benefits and leave etc that would be unfair.[/quote]
So you think it is justified for men to not step up because society doesn't expect them to? They don't get the 'rights' so why should they take the responsibility?

It's my understanding that, whenever parental leave laws have been changed such that men can take more time, very few of them actually take it

It’s my understanding that very few mothers are willing to share post natal leave; many want the maximum time for themselves

@BewareTheBeardedDragon we’ll have to agree to disagree, I think society tends to think that mum is default parent and can do what she likes unless a father challenges her in law.

It's very difficult tho. Because as a woman, I don't want to yield my "rights" (I do accept this means taking certain responsibilities that accompany those rights). For example, I did not want to share my parental leave . I wanted to breastfeed my babies on demand and be the primary care giver when they were young, which I felt to be a natural extension of my bearing them. I don't think I am alone in wanting that. DH and I discussed it and he was happy for me to have that & to not share parental leave.

I think they should get both the rights and the responsibilities- they aren’t mutually exclusive one feeds into the other

[quote iamruth]@SarahAndQuack so shouldn’t we ask why and how to change that because all the evidence shows that it’s better for women if they take that leave. Why is it not seen as the best option/a good move? What in our society is wrong so they don’t think they are as much of a parent/needed as much by their child?[/quote]
Absolutely we should ask why and how to change that.

My point is that simply making it possible in law for men to take parental leave, clearly isn't enough.

I'm not convinced that most men think they are not 'as much of a parent' as women, though. I think some men imagine they're excellent parents on the basis of very slight amounts of effort, frankly.

Re. Parental leave - there has to be some recognition of the biological facts involved. Women have spent a hell of a long time with their body being subjected to ever increasing stresses, gone through an often traumatic (physically and psychologically) experience - often with lasting effects and ongoing medical issues. Many women will be breastfeeding exclusively for 6 months. It does complicate matters. It has to be the choice of each individual couple, and lack of 'equally shared' parental leave should not be used as an excuse for ongoing inequality or for ongoing lack of taking proper parenting responsibility by men.

Talking about fairness - I tell my children often, fairness is not necessarily about everyone getting the exactly same thing regardless, it is about everyone getting what they need, even if that is different for different people.

I don't want to live in a world where, for example, women are pressured to stop breastfeeding and go back to work (I know you can do both but that doesn't always work out) purely in order that leave can be split equally. I do want to live in a world where employers accept that people of both sexes can and will have differing amounts of time off to care for children, according to their individual circumstances, and no one is stereotyped or discriminated against because of that.

I guess I don't have any solutions though, which is not so helpful.

@Merryoldgoat

Er... what?

My husband is just as capable as me and a fully functioning parent like all my friends’ husbands/partners.

What you need is to ensure you don’t have a baby with a twat and bring up your sons to respect parenthood and understand the time that’s needed.

Last para here is so true.

Someone I know had a first child with a turkish waiter, realised he was a t* decided to divorce but had a final shag, which got her pregnant again. Why oh why?

Don't sleep with someone you wouldn't mind co-parenting with.

@LimaFoxtrotCharlie

Fair point, shouldn’t men have more opportunities to take some leave. Really why should it be just for women? In Sweden I think you can have 16 months between you but the man must take some of it? If men in our society demanded this it would happen. Society should treat men as equal in responsibility for children’s emotional wellbeing too

In all honesty I do think that babies need their mum more than their dad. But I wouldn't think it okay for either parent to take a baby away from the other parent for 6 months.
I don't believe things will be equal until absent father's are compelled legally and by societal pressure to pay what it really costs to financially support their DC and to actively parent them. And until women aren't financially disadvantaged by divorce because they were sahp and post divorce are expected to solely care for DC while trying to work.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

It's very difficult tho. Because as a woman, I don't want to yield my "rights" (I do accept this means taking certain responsibilities that accompany those rights). For example, I did not want to share my parental leave . I wanted to breastfeed my babies on demand and be the primary care giver when they were young, which I felt to be a natural extension of my bearing them. I don't think I am alone in wanting that. DH and I discussed it and he was happy for me to have that & to not share parental leave.

And why should you feel guilty about this?!

There's nothing wrong with it. Personally, I think that in an ideal world, we'd have enormously generous leave entitlements for both parents. But, in the current situation, we know men typically don't take the leave they could take, even if women want them to take it. So I don't see why any individual woman should feel it's her fault that men aren't more involved parents, because she took the leave she was entitled to take.

And I'm now into anecdata, but I'll never forget the friend of mine who gave birth to a premature baby and went back to work five months later because her husband 'wanted to share parental leave'. One day - one day! - in, he'd left the baby with his mother and gone back to the office for a bit of casual catch-up, because he 'missed work'. After a week 'they' both decided it wasn't working and he'd go back to work full time while the baby went into nursery.

So my friend ended up with her premature five month old in nursery while she was trying to stop breastfeeding, all because her husband fancied cosplaying hands-on dad for a few hours, until the reality sunk in.

Not all dads are like that - not most, even - but the fact is that we need far more than parental leave entitlements to change a whole social structure.

@SarahAndQuack I’d agree that they think they’re just as good yet too often women are carrying the mental load. This needs addressing so men step up.

I’m not saying they should have more rights but no more responsibilities the opposite in fact; they should step up and be more equal parents in all aspects. End ‘mum as the default parent’ idea

Scandinavian countries do these things much better than us - but they are also willing to pay much higher taxes.

I agree that society should expect men to be more responsible for their children. I wonder how we change that? Or how men do? Do they want to?

We need to lead from the front. I work part time so does my partner. We share child responsibilities equally. I wouldn’t accept any less.

We agree, @iamruth!

Absolutely agree @MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously we need to stop there being ‘get out clauses’ for dads that don’t exist for women in my experience

I'm still struggling with the whole rights/responsibilities thing tbh. I think by rights you mean societies expectations - is that correct?

@Pumpkinnose absolutely!! I so wish we could do that but maternity leaves have meant I now earn half FTE salary of my husband and we’re somewhat accustomed to his now hugely increased salary. As a result of the full time ladder climbing. Maybe if I had the courage of my convictions I’d make more sacrifices?

It’s so true OP. Women automatically get 9 months maternity but men don’t.... they’re lucky to get two weeks.

@BewareTheBeardedDragon

Yes, I mean societies expectations that they step up and take responsibility so women arent
Left as a default parent but equally there are some “downsides” to women not being that default that we have to accept too. I would argue that there are more responsibilities many fathers need to step up to than perceived rights women might lose

I am all for equal rights and for parents to share responsibilities equally if that’s what they both want. But in my experience of friends and relatives, the mums I know are the ones who want to stay at home with their babies. They can’t bear the thought of leaving them for too long as tiny babies whereas most dads are fine with going back to work a couple of weeks after their babies are born. Of course the dads love their babies but, in lots of cases, I don’t think they have the same bonds with them as the mums do. After all, women are the ones designed to carry the babies during pregnancy, give birth to them and feed them. Safe sleeping advice states that if babies are cosleeping they shouldn’t be next to their dads - because dads don’t always wake at every whimper and movement. But mums do. I think dads are very, very important in their children’s lives but I don’t think they always want the same role as mums, and most mums I know prefer for themselves to do the day to day childcare in the early months.

But @AmyandPhilipfan can we have that? Do it all ourselves in the early days then just expect men to take half the responsibilities - when? A person defined point?

I am not saying new mums shouldn’t get time to bond and breastfeed and all those things but honestly does dad not want to spend time with his new baby or does our society teach him that dads just so go back to work etc etc “not their job”. When does it become their job?