To tell my sister a slightly harsh truth?

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

My sister's LG has just started pre-school, she's 4, has been 3 times (plus settling in morning), is happy when she's there (according to the teacher) but at home she says she doesn't want to go.

She gives various reasons as to why - she can't reach the coat hook and apparently no one helps her, she can't have juice at snack time only milk or water and she doesn't like getting changed for PE.

DSis at one pick up (and in front of her DD) asked the school if she can take juice in and stay in her uniform for PE - the answer was no to both. She asked them about the coat hook and they said they do help, DN just needs to ask.

DSis also told me that, at drop off, DN cries and Dsis cries too because it upsets her so much. She was meant to go on Thursday but refused to get dressed so they kept her off and her MIL took her for the day.

Anyway I'm a teacher so DSis has asked for some advice. But I teach 14-18 year olds. I know very little about pre-schoolers, who have very different needs and the reasons for not wanting to come to school - and the remedies for that - are very different to that of a 4yo.

however - WIBU to tell her that DN needs a calming force and not a parent sobbing at the school gates? And not to go to the teachers about petty issues - even with teens I find if the parent has the appearance of being on the side of the school it makes a world of difference to the child's attitude. I would also want to say not to make a fuss at home in the morning - a firm "we are going to school get dressed please", not up for discussion type affair (my Dsis is a fantastic mother but very soft, there aren't many boundaries with her DC and I can imagine her trying to persuade her DD rather than telling her).

I always hate being asked this kind of advice as i can't especially relate, I've never been the emotional crying sort over my DC's issues - and I've been lucky as they've always just gone to school with no trouble.

She says taking her out isn't really an option - it's the school she'll go to next year (her older kids are in the same school) and there are barely any other childcare providers with places open where she lives.

would I be a massive dick and shit sister if I told her not to cry, to be firmer and to gloss over non-issues rather than raising them at the school (this may upset her)? Or should I just say sorry I don't know much about pre-schoolers and what makes them tick and I didn't have this with my kids so not really qualified to give advice?

They change for PE at preschool? They do PE?
Anyway, I digress. Yes it’s hard to separate and yes they do quickly settle once parents leave. Gently encourage your sister.

I think letting her stay off because she refused to get dressed was possibly a mistake.

My son is four and started reception this year. He refuses to get dressed for school at first pretty much every morning, but it’s school, so he has to go. If I gave in one morning I’m sure it would be twice as hard to get him dressed the next day. Lots of encouragement and finding methods of persuading her to get dressed may be the way forward. If she keeps trying hopefully the drop offs will get easier over time.

Best way I've heard it described is that the parent needs to be the air steward. If a plane hits turbulence, the passengers will look to the air stewards. If the steward is panicking, the passengers will panic too. If the steward is calm it lets the passengers know that it's perfectly normal, and everything will be ok. Your DS needs to be an air steward - absolutely take her DD's concerns seriously, and let the teacher know that there is 'turbulence', but she needs to give off that air of calm reassurance that everything will be ok. That SHE trusts the teaching staff to look after her DD and keep her safe.

There is a child in my year 1 class that cried and got really distressed every morning. Within minutes she’d be settled and we’d text mum to let her know. Mum started to reward good separation with a fun activity at the weekend (simple things like breakfast in bed on Saturday etc) and it works really well.

Exactly that @Pigletpoglet and that’s why they always calm once parents leave. Warm but firm teachers do this every day.

At Pre-school - and even the lower years of Primary its normal to share concerns, and for the setting to share much more about what the LO has been doing. Pastoral and teaching are combined.
Your Dsis does need to be brave and not show her child that she's upset. Talking to another Mum, and arranging for both children to go in together can help - she can talk to staff to arrange this.
Its normally best to talk to staff at the end of the day unless its an "emergency" matter - eg. something like a disturbed night sleep. The staff tend to be busy in the morning getting children settled.
But there is also a possibility that either your neice is "extra sensitive" and is going to struggle more - and that can reduce the strongest of us to tears. There is also the possibility that this setting isn't the right one for her - the only real sign of that is the PE kit issue and not having to take a water bottle in.

She have older kids? So sounds like either it is her last baby or her child have some difficulty and she noticed. My mom baby my younger brother after five kids but he had difficulty in school (not behavior related) so she was very protective of him.

Don't waste everyone's time by pussy footing around, tell her straight. She knows you, she's asked you because she wants your opinion and advice, and she knows what you're like.

Everything you say is going to be helpful to her and her children.

With young children, often it's not going to school/nursery that upsets them, but leaving their parent. They are 2 different things, even though they are happening at the same time.

So she can be happy at nursery, but still cry when being dropped off.

The getting changed into PE kit - she can practice this with her DD at home. My 2 struggled a lot, but they always managed to do it in the end, with help. They found buttons really difficult but over time got better. Her DD isn't the first and won't be the last!!!

So this little girl who has probably had mum and dad one to one since Lockdown is expected to not see them all day and ask strangers for help?
No normal transition, slowly introducing her to her new environment etc.
That's a huge deal for a small person surely?

Gosh. I am currently teaching KS1 but have taught both YR & pre school & find some of these responses pretty harsh.

Totally agree that a parent in tears (at school drop off - not, for example, at a funeral) will not help. The coat peg is resolvable & staff should be near at hand enough to help without being asked at pre-school. Juice & PE clothing are almost certainly non-negotiable, but still worth explaining to staff where concerns lie. I am shocked at the lack of proactive support from staff. And separation anxiety is NOT caused by the parent - there are ways of the parent supporting (not crying being one) but I have long since lost count of the number of experienced parents suddenly thrown by child 3 or 4 who struggled to go in on just the same method as child 1 & 2. Every child is different and at this age they are very small (less than 60 months on the earth) & need support - as do parents because if mamma ain’t happy, ain’t no-one happy!

I’m of the opinion that you don’t give advice unless asked and even then I would be clear it’s what worked for us. Every dc and every parent is different. Dd1’s first nursery was totally wrong for her. She never wanted to go and changed from my confident dd to a clingy, whiny unrecognisable dc. I followed my gut and changed her from nursery to cm. I picked her up on day one at cm and it was like a switch; my happy confident dd was back.

Some settings just aren’t right for the dc. Dtds had a nursery and a pre school setting but after a while it became clear, although I liked both and have no criticism of the pre school, they much preferred nursery so as soon as there were spaces they moved full time to there. Sometimes it is about finding the place you and your dc is happiest with rather than toughening up.

I think that there are two separate issues. One is your sister not being able to 'hold it' with regard to crying when her child goes to nursery. It would of course be better for the child if her mother could control herself better. But it sounds as though she managed it with her older children, so either the younger child is having particular problems in separating, or the mother is particularly anxious right now. Both would be understandable in view of the current situation: the child may have much less experience than her older siblings, or than most children until this year, with being away from home, or meeting new people; and the mother may be under more stress than usual.

Young children do often find the unfamiliar routines of school hard to cope with, and having to change for PE can be quite an unpopular part of school even for 6 or 7 year olds. I do think that the school - perhaps because they too are under unusual stress - sounds a bit more rigid than is necessary for such young children. The rule about not bringing in juice seems reasonable enough; but I am rather surprised that nursery-age children are expected to wear a uniform or required to change for PE. I also think that it is a bit much to expect such small children to have to ask for help in reaching the coat hooks: the hooks should surely be at a suitable height for 4 year olds to reach without help. I wonder if the nursery is currently housed in accommodation really intended for somewhat older children. This may be unavoidable but is the sort of thing that can add to young children's stress.

In any case, I don't think that your sister needs 'harsh truths', but perhaps could benefit from some discussion of why the whole thing is upsetting her so much.

I cant help thinking your ds is making a fuss about nothing. The more upset she becomes in front of her dd the more her dd will get the message 'Mummy does not want me to go to pre-school'.

I would tell her she needs to be very positive about pre-school in front of her dd and remind her what fun she has there.

Sorry, but I would not sugar coat it if my sister was being silly this.

At my kids nursery the PE thing is meant to be a fun exercise to help get them used to the idea of pe/changing at school.

It is hard in her situation, let her navigate her way around it.
Off topic I don't know how teachers in the UK have the patience with 30 4 y.o's changing PE kits. I'm glad we have set pe days wear your tracksuit Tuesday and Friday
Both of mine have SEN with coordination issues at 4 it would be difficult.

If you can genuinely do it non judgementally and from a good place it should end fine. Ask yourself if this is a place you can come from before you do it though - with the tone coming across in your OP it won’t end well as a conversation.

Agreed. It reeks of judgement, further fuelled by the majority of responses here.

I’d stay out of it with that attitude.

I didn’t think there was a setting in the uk state or private where younger children are changing for PE.
But crying in front of her child sends the message I’m not feeling safe and confident with leaving you here, which is bloody scary for a small child. So she needs to ditch that.
Children learn to adapt as they grow and the rest is covered by that.

Jeez. I think posters are being incredibly indulgent towards the mum.

In all honesty if this was my sister i’d probably tell her to man the fuck up, be a grown up and stop sobbing at the gates with her 4 year old. It’s no wonder the kid keeps crying if that’s her role model for school gate etiquette.

If she's been through this with two older children and is crying and weeping with this one then I would assume that she was struggling Only you know your sister but if she's generally been sensible and level headed about children going to school then maybe here's something deeper going on?

But he would agree that she needs to be told, kindly, to get a bit of a grip. If her DD has separation anxiety then a slightly more stoic attitude is required (even if just in front of the child and then she falls apart in the car). It will be feeding the child's stress levels dreadfully. Can she arrange a phone call with the teacher to discuss what is the best course of action? It won't be the first time they've dealt with it but your sister does need to be on board.

My DS had dreadful separation anxiety, had to be peeled off me screaming three mornings a week for 18 months, so I'm not coming from a place of ignorance We did a HUGE amount of prep towards going to school. It was harder because obviously we can't go into the classroom to settle etc but practising putting socks and shoes on, practising putting coat on, practising asking an adult for help with things etc. (Ours do PE in bare feet till January and then start getting changed for PE, but the purpose of getting changed is literally just to practice getting dressed and undressed, that's the skill )

She’s best asking the school and other parents who have had similar issues for advice. You don’t really know what to advise as you’ve not been through it.

The mums tears could have been exasperation. It’s wearing dealing with school refusal day after day and it is a really negative start to the day for everyone.

I think there is a bit of both here. The mum is not helping at all and is probably passing on a degree of stress. The pre-school isn’t going to start giving her juice so that’s a non-starter. PE is a bit different though. I’ve got one in reception and lots of the children are being helped still. At 4 age will be one of the older ones (assuming England) so ur would seem a surprising choice for 3 and 4 yos. I would suggest she asks about strategies for PE but also pulls herself together.

I'm always fascinated by the relationships people on here have with family. My sister and I wouldn't hesitate to just say to each other "stop crying at the gate you muppet"

Yeah, crying at the gate probably isn’t helping (although I agree with previous posters that that could be as much frustration/ humiliation as anything!).

On the other hand, preschool is absolutely the right time to have a dialogue about the fact that a child is struggling to settle and to discuss ways to make it easier for them. It might not be possible to do anything about the child’s worries, especially with the added challenges of the Covid-19 situation. But most children aren’t “school-ready” when they start preschool and my DD’s preschool was always happy to discuss ways of getting them there by the start of Reception, including dropping the number of sessions for a while and building up again. Preschool is absolutely too young for a “whiny little brat needs to man up!” mentality.

I say that as someone whose DD loved preschool and never even said goodbye to me at the gate. But plenty of kids in her setting struggled in the beginning. A few of them had undiagnosed SEN which were picked up on in the course of the year.