To tell my sister a slightly harsh truth?

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

My sister's LG has just started pre-school, she's 4, has been 3 times (plus settling in morning), is happy when she's there (according to the teacher) but at home she says she doesn't want to go.

She gives various reasons as to why - she can't reach the coat hook and apparently no one helps her, she can't have juice at snack time only milk or water and she doesn't like getting changed for PE.

DSis at one pick up (and in front of her DD) asked the school if she can take juice in and stay in her uniform for PE - the answer was no to both. She asked them about the coat hook and they said they do help, DN just needs to ask.

DSis also told me that, at drop off, DN cries and Dsis cries too because it upsets her so much. She was meant to go on Thursday but refused to get dressed so they kept her off and her MIL took her for the day.

Anyway I'm a teacher so DSis has asked for some advice. But I teach 14-18 year olds. I know very little about pre-schoolers, who have very different needs and the reasons for not wanting to come to school - and the remedies for that - are very different to that of a 4yo.

however - WIBU to tell her that DN needs a calming force and not a parent sobbing at the school gates? And not to go to the teachers about petty issues - even with teens I find if the parent has the appearance of being on the side of the school it makes a world of difference to the child's attitude. I would also want to say not to make a fuss at home in the morning - a firm "we are going to school get dressed please", not up for discussion type affair (my Dsis is a fantastic mother but very soft, there aren't many boundaries with her DC and I can imagine her trying to persuade her DD rather than telling her).

I always hate being asked this kind of advice as i can't especially relate, I've never been the emotional crying sort over my DC's issues - and I've been lucky as they've always just gone to school with no trouble.

She says taking her out isn't really an option - it's the school she'll go to next year (her older kids are in the same school) and there are barely any other childcare providers with places open where she lives.

would I be a massive dick and shit sister if I told her not to cry, to be firmer and to gloss over non-issues rather than raising them at the school (this may upset her)? Or should I just say sorry I don't know much about pre-schoolers and what makes them tick and I didn't have this with my kids so not really qualified to give advice?

Prolonged goodbyes make things worse. They're usually fine when you're out the door.

And not to go to the teachers about petty issues

She's 4, at preschool. Of course she should be talking to the teachers about things that are causing her very young child anxiety.

@WutheringTights so true - I had one who struggled and one who didn’t. Staff were so kind I have to say - even said it was their job to support me as well as dc. Bless them!!

No you wouldn't. I had this problem with both my ds's. They cried everyday going to nursery. I would never have cried infront of them. It took aot to hold it in until I got in the car and had a wee bubble.
Asking the teachers to allow one child yo bring juice and wear different clothes than the tezt of the children isn't really on either.

Just remind her that children look to their parents for reassurance. So DSis needs to be calm and confident, and let DN know that everything will be fine. Point out that a parent crying is extremely anxiety-inducing for a child, and her daughter will associate their mum crying with school being a bad place. So for her to feel safe at school, she needs her mum to be relaxed calm and confident in front of her.

The little girl needs it explained that school will be different from at home, but doing new things is exciting and that the grown-ups at nursery will help her.

You say your dsis has other children. If they are older then she may have experience in this area and her daughter may not be ready yet? I would maybe say subtly that it is very difficult when they are upset but if we are both crying it can escalate without meaning to. She should bring up any issues as her daughter is only four. The teachers should be more involved. She might not be ready for school yet. Some children are better suited starting at five. Your sister crying at school won't be helping though.

She needs to support her
So have water or milk at home every now and then
Dd needs to used to getting herself changed
Dd needs to know that we go to school when we're old enough, you can't just say no
She needs to ask for help with things

Mum needs to help her, talk about scaffolding and setting her up for success, not sobbing...

Well obviously all children are identical at that age and therefore this is all the sisters fault for not being a better parent.

MN at its finest as usual...

I'm screaming here. Your DS is absolutely fuelling this. Do not pussyfoot around. If you care that much tell your DS, she is being unreasonable and unhinged and please tell her.

Be honest, she’s really not doing her DD any favours the way she’s behaving.

When I was little (maybe the same age?) I had a family friend who had that exact problem. his parents were very calm, made it clear he would be going and that was not up for discussion (so cutting off a tantrum avenue!) and did everything they could to ensure he would look forward to it—having a friend there helped a lot, to distract at the goodbye point. It can take a while for the child to make a friend or someone they trust there, but that can be a good way to get them to be ok with drop off

No just tell her straight. She needs someone to! The school definitely needs someone to.

I think you can go in somewhere in the middle - I'd encourage her to empathise with her daughter's feelings over what's difficult, while holding the line that these are the rules at school, for xyz reasons. That way, her daughter hears that her mum is on her side emotionally but also learns that there are rules for everyone in life - not just her - and that they exist for a reason. But most importantly, she knows her mum will give her a loving space to feel crap and express it when she needs to.

So 'I hear you're finding it really hard not being able to have juice when you want it. That is hard, isn't it. I find it hard when I can't do what I want too', have a cry, have a cuddle, but not budging on the fact that the rules can't change. That doesn't mean having to be stern, or fake breezy, but it does mean holding a boundary in a loving way.

YANBU to tell your sister something out of love and gently and supportively if she is asking and open it.

YABU if you are thinking of it in terms of ‘telling’ her a ‘slightly harsh truth.’

If you can genuinely do it non judgementally and from a good place it should end fine. Ask yourself if this is a place you can come from before you do it though - with the tone coming across in your OP it won’t end well as a conversation.

The thing that strikes me in this post is that she has older children so she's been through pre-school drop-offs before, it's not new to her. Her maternal instinct/gut feeling is something isn't quite working out here, she needs to trust it. Having said that, it's a bit odd that she's crying at drop-off. Is she depressed?

@Justpassingthroughagain

Well obviously all children are identical at that age and therefore this is all the sisters fault for not being a better parent.

MN at its finest as usual...

Children are pretty much identical in needing their parents to be calm, confident, and reliable when they (the children) are feeling anxious.

Have you ever known a small child deal better with a situation while seeing their parent cry?

What you say is all true, but in addition to your sister, the school has a part to play in your niece’s setting in process too.

4 is young though. She needs to be supported at home to develop self help skills and to be encouraged to ask for help at school.

It does sound ridiculous that the coat pegs are so high up she can’t reach.

This could well be the case, but perhaps it’s not that she can’t reach, but that she can’t hang her coat up because she has never done it before.

Her DD is still little, my DS clung onto my leg every time i dropped him off to nursery and had been going since he was 1 right up until his last day. I was anxious at him starting pre school. (like your sister I had older DC and none of them were like this) However the teachers did a home visit, i discussed my concerns, they were set up for him, they always gave him a little important job to start the day and he had no issue at all. I have no doubt if he didnt settle and I cried and didnt take him in it wouldnt get any better. She needs to speak to the teachers and come up with a plan to get her settled into school. I see DC at the start of new term standing sobbing and clinging onto there parent/carer. After a week or two there skipping in...she needs to persevere, not sob and not keep her off

Children in infants are not allowed juice for snack ( I would have thought in most schools!) - so she will have to get used to that when starts school.

I'm a teacher. Have taught reception and also have my own young children. It definitely helps to have a calm parent at drop off but things that seem like a 'petty issue' to an adult are absolutely not petty to a 4 year old. I'd welcome parents letting me know easily fixable causes of stress. Young children will tell their parents more than their teachers and they need parents to advocate (politely and appropriately) for them. Please don't advise your sister in some misguided tough love, but yes do suggest she tries her hardest to hold back the tears and keep positive in front of her daughter. As well as telling the teacher anything that may be helpful.

The 'second chicken' theory might be useful - in 'the opposite of worry' by Lawrence Cohen, help for anxious children (and parents).

I wouldn't say they are 'petty issues' - the child is anxious and worried and these tiny things can become huge in their minds. What she needs is more support from her mother and the teachers - not to change the rules, but to acknowledge that she's nervous/scared and to help her settle and relax. Boundaries and compassion. I think that holds true for all ages, tbh. So it's not asking for her to get juice instead of milk, it's talking to the school and saying she's struggling and needs a bit of help.

I would try to empathise, or ask your Dsis if she'd like to talk about it, the more she feels heard and understood herself the better she'll be able to be calm and positive with her daughter.

• er, sorry, I meant to explain the 'second chicken' thing - it sounds a bit cryptic otherwise!

Just an anecdote that chickens look to each other to see if there is danger or if all is well. Children look to their caregiver/parent to see if all is well, so if your Dsis is calm and relaxed and positive at drop off, she will model that for her daughter.

www.amazon.com/Opposite-Worry-Parenting-Childhood-Anxieties-ebook/dp/B00BRUQ77W?tag=mumsnetforu03-21#reader_B00BRUQ77W

Tell her that some children find it easier to separate in private at home and suggest MIL picks her up from home and takes her in for the first few weeks. Then they can ease into your sister taking her by going together for a week (that way she won’t cry as MIL will be there and have done it without for a while so sis won’t want to be the cause).

She’s at nursery not school. Pre-school is nursery. I think you need to back off a bit and let your sister do her own thing.

I totally agree with you OP. Your sister is definitely a big part of the problem - the lack of boundaries at home and then the crying at dropoff and trying to make the staff relax their boundaries too.

BUT. Don't say anything. Honestly don't. She will not change as a result and she'll just be annoyed and upset with you. Just let it run its course. The more time her child spends in school/childcare the more she'll learn about boundaries and the more your sister will have to deal with her child having boundaries.