Kids snacks at school - white carbs twice before lunch

[prettyflowersinthesky]

DD is in y4.

I seriously don't want to be "that" parent so am wondering on the consensus on this.

DD's school has started giving the whole school's kids stodgy white carbs with jam twice before lunchtime (bagels).

Once when they arrive in the morning, and then again at break time.

DD is coming home with most of her lunch uneaten.

I fully appreciate about food poverty and that giving the kids food in this blanket way is a way of addressing that without singling out or embarrassing hungry children or families.

But I question

1. Whether or not the white carbs plus jam is appropriate nutrition
2. Whether or not most kids really need this
3. Whether or not two snacks between breakfast and lunch is excessive

There is no requirement for the kids to take and eat the snacks but to say to my child not to take them when the other kids are seems unfair.

I'm a bit torn, and certainly don't want to deny hungry kids access to food. But also wonder if the school needs to give this twice and also maybe the nutritional content of the snacks could be improved (e.g. fruit, whole grain snacks or something instead). I do appreciate that kids need more carbs than adults.

What does everyone think? Is this appropriate? I feel for the vast majority of kids without food poverty issues this is not necessary, so by serving all the kids a snack it is enforcing bad snacking habits, poor food choices as well as encouraging childhood obesity.

In many very healthy countries no snacking is allowed although I appreciate for very young children it may be necessary.

I am wondering whether or not to speak to the school about my concerns about them finding a better way to address the issues for the hungry kids.

But I do not want to speak up if I am seriously misinformed about all of this, hence interested in your responses. Thanks.

Yanbu = this is not appropriate / YABU - give the kids the snacks

@theconstantinoplegardener

I agree with you, OP, but unfortunately you seem to have attracted the Mumsnet wolves and are now experiencing a pile-on.

I also think that two sugary snacks before lunch sounds excessive and unhealthy and will contribute to poor eating habits and obesity. By supplying them to all children, school may be "reducing inequality" but they are doing so by reducing the diets of all children to the lowest common denominator, which I think is a mistake. And I know your DD could say no, but how many 8-year-olds are realistically going to turn down a sugary snack that all their friends are tucking into?

Perhaps the bagels should be laid out before class begins and parents who are unable to provide their children with breakfast can drop their children a little earlier (along with children attending breakfast club, so no stigma) and they can eat then.

Schools are staggering class entry into school to comply with Covid guidelines. Primary school classes have to remain in their bubbles. No school has enough staff / space /entry points to manage a bagel and non-bagel entry for every class bubble.

to all the people telling me to speak to my child to tell her not to take them, I do of course, do this. As per earlier posts, kids have poor impulse control, there are plenty of studies on this. So saying and the child doing it is another thing. imagine being with all your friends having a yummy sugary snack and having to say "no". As a child I would have found this difficult. I do my best to parent my child and we eat healthily at home. But impulse control especially around peers all doing one thing is another matter.

And at NO time during my posts have I ever suggested that hungry children get denied free food, I am all for it. Please don't suggest that I want to take away food from them. I do not. Please re-read my OP if you think that.

I'd love to know who are all these 8 yr olds that obediently turn down the offer of a jam bagel and say "on no, I must wait for my nutritionally balanced savoury protein lunch" when most of their friends are eating jam.

Mine certainly wouldn't have done.

Kids who are well fed don't need it, kids who do need it deserve better than cheap jam sandwiches twice a day

Trust me, your school wouldn’t be doing this if there wasn’t an issue with hunger! School budgets are squeezed to the point where they can’t afford glue sticks so if they didn’t need to provide extra food they wouldn’t. I imagine it’s not a full bagel either, it’ll be half or even 1/4. Maybe talk to your DD about only having the bagel at either the start of school or break time rather than both.

I seems you are pushing all responsibility onto the school. Healthy eating IMO is not the domain or responsibility of the school, it is the responsibility of the parent. They are providing an add-on for children who may not have had breakfast and whose parents may well be struggling (particularly at this moment given rising unemployment) to keep their children fed. Nutrition including carbs is important to learning and for a child who has had nothing to eat until lunchtime they may well need this. I think the school is doing the best it can and if you are in the privileged position to not need this then you can adapt to it- give your daughter less carbs for breakfast and lunch or tell her not to have the bagel snack which she is offered. You say this is unfair but would it not teach your child self control and monitoring her hunger (you seem not to want to address that)? And IMO it is far more unfair for those who need it not to have this support. This is entirely within your and your daughters control and to complain about it would be unreasonable.

Our school offers toast with butter each morning as there is currently no breakfast club.
In our area breakfast club has a very high take up, some for childcare and some for Food poverty.
The children only have half a slice each (more if they ask) and it’s not compulsory.

I doubt very much it’s a whole bagel, probably half or a mini so realistically if your DD takes both she’s only getting the equivalent to one whole bagel extra a day.
Tell DD to decline as she’s had breakfast.

@Scaraffito

Ah the grateful poor trope that is often spouted on these threads. Of course if a parent cannot afford to feed their child then something is better than nothing, but there is also a load of different foods that are better than 2 jam bagels, and it would also benefit them to have something more nutritionally balanced.

Yes, but schools can not afford either the time or the staffing/ cleaning to provide the nutritional ideal, especially under the current circumstances. However, I’m sure many head teachers would welcome a parent-driven campaign to get the government to provide universal healthy breakfasts, and the staff to cook them, and the staff to supervise, and the staff to clean, and the space to have all the children eating in their Covid-compliant bubbles at the same time.

Can anyone really not afford a value loaf of bread & jam or a box of value cornflakes to feed a child breakfast before school? I mean come on, any decent parent would go without so the child could have breakfast.

It’s astonishing that people are unaware of how bad food poverty really can be for some families. I’ve really had my eyes opened, through teaching, as to how desperately some families live in this country

I grew up in a household permanently on benefits (not through genuine ill health or anything, more just because mum always found a way not to work) and many of my extended family remain the same. I also work in a job where many of my clients are on benefits. I myself was on benefits for a short period of time when I lost my job - single person, no savings. I still do not understand how people genuinely cannot afford a box of tesco value cornflakes and a pint of milk or a value loaf of bread and value butter/jam for the week for breakfast. Perhaps it's the working poor who cannot afford it, as that isn't something I've personally experienced. I've always either had an ok paid job, not well paid by any means but enough to get by on, or when I was on jobseekers, i had enough to buy a very basic shop every week.

When my DCs were at that age, they were only allowed fruit or vegetable at break. I would say that the school could offer a breakfast bagel, then offer fruit for break.

If you're really concerned about your daughter's intake if carbs, then tell her the bagels are really for the children who didn't manage to have their breakfast that day, so she doesn't really need one.

@RoseTintedAtuin I agree parents should encourage healthy eating but so should schools. It is part of the national curriculum.

Personally I wouldn't give her breakfast and let her have the bagel in the morning but tell her you don't want her having the second one. Or give her a small lunch.
I wouldn't say anything because I imagine the school and teachers are incredibly stressed at the moment.

@MissBaskinIfYoureNasty

That's totally crap. If its about food poverty then its almost insulting too. Like poor kids deserve sugary, carby crap instead of something nutritious. I would ask my child not to eat it and explain why and then also contact the school. No need to be confrontational but I think they need to review the food choice.

I agree with this.

I bagel with jam is, from a nutritional point of view, a terrible thing to be having on a frequent basis. And because it’s so sugary, it will raise your blood sugar level really rapidly, with a quick plunge afterwards, and make you crave more sugary rubbish. This is exactly why we have a growing obesity crisis - because most children and adults are getting most of their calories from refined wheat and sugar - not things our bodies Are meant to be eating on a regular basis.

I'd love to know who are all these 8 yr olds that obediently turn down the offer of a jam bagel and say "on no, I must wait for my nutritionally balanced savoury protein lunch" when most of their friends are eating jam.

Some children are capable of self restraint, not all of them have no impulse control whatsoever

My DD wouldnt turn down a bagel with jam if offered and she was hungry, but if she isn't hungry she will regularly turn down snacks as she is in the fortunate position of coming from a household where food is not an issue so she knows that there will be food available when she does get hungry.

Additionally my dd gets a choice - when she was at primary school they provided a snack every day, she would take a snack from home and would choose one or the other. If she had the school snack then her own snack would be saved for later - especially easy if it was a prepackaged item that could stay in her bag till she wanted it - but if she preferred her own snack then she would just say no to the school offering.

Yes, but schools can not afford either the time or the staffing/ cleaning to provide the nutritional ideal, especially under the current circumstances.

Even brown bread/toast with sugar free peanut butter has some benefits. The cost would be the same if they had some kind of control over who could have it. I grew up in a chaotic household and we hardly ever had toothpaste etc in, jam would have absolutely annihilated my teeth, which would have been a shame as we also never went to the dentist. Before people scream about me assuming 'poor' families are neglectful, i am not. But in with those who cannot afford food will be many who don't have food because of other reasons.

@Scaraffito

Ah the grateful poor trope that is often spouted on these threads. Of course if a parent cannot afford to feed their child then something is better than nothing, but there is also a load of different foods that are better than 2 jam bagels, and it would also benefit them to have something more nutritionally balanced.

Ask yourself why bagels and jam are the foodstuffs being offered perhaps? What foods would you offer (and perhaps pay for)? Do you know that the teachers are not funding these themselves? I know of several teachers who do this and, for inclusiveness, offer to all children in their class, even to those who will have had breakfast so as not to cause an issue.

Quick, relatively cheap and easy - as well as being standard foods that are less likely to cause allergic reactions being that they're foods that many have at home usually.

Bagels also last a bit longer (to eat and to store). I'm sure I'm not the only one who as a child was accustomed to 'moon bread' now and again. You know, the bread with the holes left from where mould was picked out?

It's not about 'grateful poor' and that make me incredibly sad. There are some privileged posters here (I am one) who were not privileged as children though. So many posters are unable to relate to anything that doesn't fit witihin their limited purview and it's quite breathtaking listenin to their trope.

I appreciate that this is well meaning and the school probably want to address food poverty. But it's totally at odds with the drive to increase healthy eating and reduce obesity.

Surely they can think of a healthier option for the mid-morning snack!

Surely the easiest thing to do would be adjust your dd's breakfast and lunch to allow for the bagel if she wants to eat with her friends if you cannot trust her to say no to the bagel when offered. The school must be aware of things you have no idea about as I am sure they aren't making this food available without good reason. Dd's school provided breakfast lunch and tea to some children who would have gone hungry otherwise.

Can anyone really not afford a value loaf of bread & jam or a box of value cornflakes to feed a child breakfast before school? I mean come on, any decent parent would go without so the child could have breakfast

Can anyone really not understand the appalling levels of poverty a (thankfully small) minority of families in the UK have to endure?

The combination of high rents and the benefit cap is brutal. I've worked with families who have less than £70 pw to feed and clothe 4 people, after paying their rent, utilities and council tax. And that's in so-called "affordable" housing.

Our LEA doesn't provide any financial assistance with uniforms, or transport unless the statutory distance is exceeded, even when the parent is disabled and unable to walk them to school. I've known a family go without heating or hot water for 3 days because their last £10 went on a taxi to take their kids to school. I've had to take a client to charity shops to find school shoes for a teenage child when the sole had come off their only pair, the school wouldn't let them go to school in non-regulation shoes and they would have been fined if they'd stayed home. I've had clients confess to shoplifting to feed their kids and used to refer at least 2 or 3 families a week to food banks. And I've given them lifts to the food bank when there isn't one within walking area.

It broke my heart and made me very angry, which is why I stopped doing frontline support work.

I’m shocked that OP has had so many rude responses to this. What makes people feel the need to be horrible to OP? If you think she’s wrong why not say why, rather than just attack her?

You don't want to parent your child i.e. educate your child in nutrition, because you see it as unfair yet this is someone else's fault. Right, you are.

Either give her fruit for breakfast or less sandwich and more carb-lite lunches if she is unlikely to avoid eating them for the sake of it.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe yes, I grew up in poverty and a jam bagel everyday would have done wonders for my decaying teeth, and as a nice addition to the small amount of food we had at home which was white bread, and some sugary beans for most meals. So yes, it is better than nothing, but as it's also detrimental to others in the class, its not great.

If OP stops giving her DD breakfast, then she also becomes a poor child who needs a bagel at school because she hasn’t had breakfast. At present it is probably the the majority who have 2 breakfasts; I doubt if there is anything unusual about OP or her DD, or her DD’s lack of willpower.

OP, if you approach the school, I wouldn't say anything about white carbs as that sounds very precious. However, I would say something about the sheer volume of food as evidenced by her having no appetite left for her packed lunch. They must have other children leaving there’s or only picking at their school lunch. Which seems a shame as school lunch must be more nutritious than bagel and jam.

So you want the school to change what they are doing because you can't think of a way to change something yourself.

There is no way those children are getting 2 full bagels each before lunch. It will either be half, or even a quarter of a bagel. I would imagine there is a reason for it always being bagels (is it is actually always bagels) I also doubt that they all have to have jam.

I completely agree with you OP.

However big the need to feed some children is, it shouldn’t be done with detriment to other children’s health. Feeding children an extra bagel with jam every day on top of an already full and balanced diet is going to be detrimental to their health whichever way you look at it, and it’s not ok for schools to do that. They need to find a better way to manage the dietary needs of all children in the school, not only the ones whose parents are doing a shit job.

It’s unreasonable to expect children to say no every time they are offered a treat. I know I’d find it hard to say no to something I quite liked twice every morning, and so would many other adults.