AIBU to force my dog to walk by my side and pull her back in line when she's ahead of me?

[Amireallybeingmean]

Putting myself at the mercy of AIBU because if I am then I feel awful and need a brutal bollocking. Its mega long, sorry! Skip to last paragraph if you dont want background.

Dog is my baby, love her to pieces, spoil her rotten, work from home or take her to work, take her on holidays, sleeps in our bed, goes to nana and grandads for sunday dinner, gets more Christmas presents that we do.

Where we used to live we would walk in open spaces, she has an extendable lead and just roamed, so she never learned to walk to heal. We now live in a built up area, she needs to walk close on a short lead otherwise she would wander onto the road (like all the other dogs round here).

She is also dog reactive after two dog attacks a few years ago, progress is slow, we take massive steps back anytime an out of control dog chases/barks/lunges at her.

We've seen dog trainers and now have a very good system in place that is really working for her, the progress in the last few months is incredible. She has training walks on our estate to work on lead work and focus, ball games on a quiet field and rural walks with non-reactive dogs to build her confidence socialising. We recently had our dog walker for a week while I was away, he was amazed, said she was like a different dog and whatever I'm doing is awesome.

So AIBU...
The training walks are on a 6ft lead, I hold the handle in one hand and the length of the lead in the other, she has enough lead to walk shoulder to hip with me (big dog) and have a loose lead. When she reacts to a dog she gets a firm no and a quick tug back, maybe takes two tugs to get her to keep walking again if it's a dog she doesn't like and she's lunging. When she pulls, I stop walking, if she doesn't come back I use the back of my leg, kinda cross it across my other leg (as though I desperately need a wee) and push her back with my calf, if she's too far forward I'll reach forward and pull her back by her collar, so she's inline with me and we set off walking again. Shes got used to moving back when I stop but these walks involve a lot of stops. I also talk to her alot stuff like "it's annoying isn't it but you could just walk with me" "if you stopped barking at them they'd stop barking at you".
A woman screamed at me today saying I'm horrible to her and to stop kicking her, tried to explain I'm not kicking her, just using the back of my leg to push her back, it's less disruptive than leaning down and pulling her backwards but if I dont bring her backwards shes still gonna be pulling when we set off again. But she was just screaming and dog started crying so I just took her inside.
Am I being horrible to her by forcing her to walk to heal and pulling her back when she pulls? Shes a happy dog, excited when I get her lead, happy when we get back and cuddly with me, well fed etc. I dont want to be upsetting her but when she pulls she chokes herself and makes herself more anxious so she's more reactive. Shes so much calmer now and she's a large breed that if she was pulling and lunging at everything people would think she's dangerous, despite being a big cry baby that runs in circles crying when attacked.

Personally I would use a harness, with a front ring rather than pull on her neck. I was taught to stop if he pulled and turn back if he continued.
My lab walks beautifully on the lead, proudly, with his head up and his tail flowing behind him. But we did a LOT of practice.

From my reading of what you've written, it sounds fine. I had (😢) a large reactive dog and they can take a fair bit of handling - much like a toddler - just saying "no dear don't do that" won't do a thing, sometimes you have to restrain them!

Same dog once had a foot problem and wore baby socks on his walks (with other treatment, all done in liaison with vet) - random stranger hurled abuse at me for forcing dog to wear clothes. Dog not fussed (bit bemused). Vet very impressed at complete recovery. Dog saved from toe amputation. Ignore twats.

She will get it. It took mine a while too. I think it's incredibly important to properly train dogs (and owners) and it can sometimes look bad to someone passing who doesn't know.

The woman was massively unreasonable.

@Dreamersandwishers we've tried a harness, and haltileads and dogmatics, she's got too much strength on a harness and she goes into sled dog mode despite not being a sled dog breed. I worry about her neck which is why I push her back from her chest instead of letting her pull. We did have that turn back trick recommended with changing speed aswell, which did work for lead walking (knackered us both out aswell 😂) but it made her more excited which made the reactivity worse.

@Sausagis aw sorry you lost your dog, my girls middle aged if she does well, I cant imagine losing her. Thanks, it has really thrown me tbh and I feel really anxious about walking her again.

I feel like I've tried everything and every trainer and now I've found something that's working everyone thinks I'm horrible and abusing her.

Dog is my baby, love her to pieces, spoil her rotten, work from home or take her to work, take her on holidays, sleeps in our bed, goes
to nana and grandads for sunday dinner, gets more Christmas presents that we do.

Therein lies your problem.
She need general training in obedience. Heel training, learning her place in the pack.
You should not have to pull a dog, and a dog should not pull you on a lead.
She has agression and anxiety- she needs to be shown her focus. Taught how to be calm.

@SchrodingersImmigrant thankyou, god I hope so, I really see the light at the end of the tunnel, we get to the point she can walk with a group of new dogs then she can go to group obedience classes, then she can go to group social classes, she'll be so happy when she can run round with dogs again and not be scared of getting attacked.

She was screaming from like 200m away, all my neighbours will have heard it, what if they agree? God I just feel so ashamed but I dont know what else I can do that will work for her.

I can completely understand why you are doing this, but it will not help your dog become less reactive, you will be adding to the fear or frustration. She will have negative associations when she sees other dogs. You need to start from a distance away from other dogs, where she does not react, but notices them. Treat her everytime she sees a dog and doesn't react. You might have to knock the estate walks on the head til she improves and go to a larger space. You are aiming for her to ignore other dogs ideally. My dog has improved massively using this technique. Join the FB group dog training advice and support. .

Dog ownership is much like parenting, everyone has an opinion, and thinks they know best.
You know your dog and her issues, you have sought help to manage them, its working. You have her best interests at heart.
Ignore strangers.
And now you know the pitfalls of extendable leads you won't use one with the next dog you train. (They have there place, I used one with my sled dog who could not be safely let off the lead, but I taught him to walk to heal first).

Sounds like an odd approach to a reactive dog from your trainer. Have you looked up CARE? You should be conditioning her to other dogs in a positive way rather than punishing her with a tug and a no.

Harness with a front ring and double ended lead is a game changer for pulling

Also -

You're getting a lot of good advice here, I just want to reiterate the use of a harness, the stain is bad for the neck and the choking it's distressing (if not for the dog or for you then for passers by).

Our dog trainer recommended cutting up tiny pieces of cheese and hotdogs and put them on a bag in our pocket, the dog could smell them and practically walked next to us with his nose pressed against my pocket, we gave him lots of positive praise and rewarded him at the end of a trouble free walk, our dog also reacted badly if it saw another dog so we would rattle the bag and if our dog didn't react to the other dog it would be rewarded with cheese or hotdog, it does work

Op I had this same situation, with a large reactive dog. Instead of one person it was a gaggle of teenagers who threatened to call the rspca. I felt so bloody awful I took the dog back home and went back out to find them and explain. I'm sure they thought I was awful and Batty to boot. Reactive dogs are really hard, no one will understand unless they've had one. You can't fix it. You just need to manage it and get into credit so you can deal with set backs. If it's working for you and your dog, and you feel confident you could explain and defend your actions then no worries.

I expect you've tried it all but I found the book fiesty fido quite good and Behaviour Adjustment Training (bat) helpful. And training a really solid 'watch me' using a clicker.

So I did miss out, when we see dogs it's a barrage of good girl, treats etc, then when she reacts it's a firm no, if she lunges she's pulled back (before I was just holding the lead and letting her stop lunging when she was done) but the no and tug seems to reset her and it means that she then walks off calm again whereas before she used to be amped up the whole walk after one reaction and it just snowballed. She does seem so much calmer, no anxious body language while we're walking. Then we get chilled walks with good dogs (using the reducing distance technique) which is absolutely amazing for her, she doesn't even react to closely passing dogs when she's following a well behaved dog.
We need obedience classes, for the socialisation and recall, cant for life of me get her to come back when she's distracted. But she cant until she can be on a loose lead around dogs.
I thought I'd found her perfect combination of praise and correction and that we would get there but now I just dont know, back to square one again. Every new trainer says something different. Went from most recent trainer who then brought in a partner and decided dog couldn't be near any dogs without a muzzle despite never trying to bite a dog and walking with the trainers dog side by side a week ago

Find a trainer who understands dog behaviour.

Each time you punish your dog for paying attention to or reacting towards another dog you are telling her 'other dogs are bad news' and whilst in teh short term you might suppress her behaviour you are not addressing either the frustration or anxiety that is causing it, and eventually that fear or frustration will get the better of her and you will have a much worse situation on your hands.

See someone who understands learning theory and behaviour, teach your dog to focus on you, reduce anxiety by using classical conditioning, teach her to walk beside you because she WANTS to, not because she fears the alternative.

Oh and mixing and matching positive reinforcement and positive punishment doesn't work well at all.

The situation you describe in your last post, you are expecting her to understand how to behave and rewards are contingent on that, but you are continuing to put her into a situation she can't actually handle and punishing her when she inevitably fails.

If instead you set her up to succeed, maintaining sufficient distance that she does not feel the need to react, and reinforcing her for seeing (classical conditioning) the other dog, you will do far better.

If she reacts, you got too close YOU fucked up, do better next time.

When you are training your dog in public you will get people shouting at you. You just have to have faith in the method you are using and develop a thick skin.

@Indecisivelurcher "watch me" sounds like a really good thing to learn, I'll look into it. It's why I talk to her so much, like "focus on me, remember I'm right here" but she doesn't know what I'm saying so I just chat shit. I'll find the book too. It's so tough, I feel like I prepared for every part of having this breed except for peoples opinions, i feel like she and I are judged for everything, like if she's not perfect then she's some dangerous animal.
I was gonna go round to her house to explain but she seemed so aggressive and I'm pregnant and just the idea of putting myself at the tiniest risk of a fight feels terrifying. And I thought, well maybe I am a horrible cow and my poor dog.

The easiest time to teach 'watch me' is when you feed her, but it will help her if you talk to her less. Too much chatter will teach her to ignore your voice which is the opposite of what you want.

Ignore shouty woman, she chastised from a place of ignorance and her opinion does not matter. Don't feel guilty - at least you are trying to rectify the issues which is a damn sight more than many dog owners.

You have a difficult task, having not worked on heel work with your pup, you have an adult dog with no basics in place and now having been attacked you have to try to unravel her fears whilst trying to get her to understand what you require of her. That's hard work - so well done for your committment so far.

I thoroughly agree with the harness. The pain from pulling will not help her anxiety. Get a front and back D ring and attach lead at both ends. When she pulls, apply gentle pressure to the front ring. It will confuse her at first and she'll try to wriggle around in the harness but she'll quickly learn that she can't pull that way and it gets easier. Work on that with her without the distraction of other dogs so she gets it.

I think you need to work on her heel work away from other dogs so she understand what you need of her first. Instead of talking whole conversations with her, have some phrases you use. Boringly, I used heel and walk at heel which I repeated over and over when my Giant Doodle was neatly by my side with lots of good boy, well done in a happy voice. When he pulled, gentle pressure to front lead, with a no (not raised voice), until he was back at side.

I found distraction techniques for other dogs. Its a slow way to work though! every time I saw another dog, i put him into sit (it's his best and most reliable command) off to the side of the path and kept him there until the dog passed. Now I did this well in advance, before he had seen or reacted to dog and kept close hold of both ends of lead and stood to his side with one foot in front of him and one to the side (shoulder width stance) and ready to grab his harness handle if necessary. Again repeated firm command (Leave him) and try to hold his attention on me as much as possible. Now he wasn't scared - he was just juvenile and very large and strong with an over-riding desire to play very boisterously with every other 4 legged friend. So there were times when he could pull me a few steps, but generally I kept him clear and put him back into sit until I had his attention back fully on me. Then loads of praise. He got it after a few weeks. We then progressed to sit, with a longer lead and I hold his tennis ball and he kept his attention on me and the ball.

I would try somewhere with less distraction from other dogs and get her in a position where her attention is on you until she realises that other dogs will pass her if she doesn't react to them? Its a nightmare if other people let their dogs off lead as you've no chance but usually when I put mine into sit and double leaded him, well in advance, most people realised and put their dogs on a lead and walked quickly past which made the lesson I was trying to teach far easier.

It's harder for you as she's in a place of fear and you also need to instill confidence, but if she isn't understanding what you require of her (to walk at heel) then she is confused and conflicted when she is nervous and you will struggle to instill confidence in her if she doesn't have trust in you.

BTW I do talk to my boy incessantly throughout his walks. but when we are doing specific things and I need specific reactions, I use short phrases on repeat - consistently (steady; stop; wait; heel; sit; leave him/it; go play; come here; lead on time). That way he knows what I want from him - otherwise the conversation just lets him know I'm there and my attention is on him - he loves it!

Im a big advocate for positive reinforcement when it comes to dogs. I don't think what you're doing is awful, but its not the way I do it.

I get my dog to focus on me before any dogs get close, and I hold her focus until the dog is off in the distance. It takes a good while to train but can be done with positive reinforcement. If she does react to a dog, I throw hot dog sausage at her until I get her attention again

Trainer advised me not to use a harness for a dog that pulls as well?

@WiddlinDiddlin we did used to do that, keep distance anytime she seems too interested turn around. But for at least a year, nothing changed, she never had any postive interactions with dogs, she either had no interaction or, we would get trapped in a bad situation, and she'd react and set herself back 200m. With this, even though she has some bad reactions, which she did before, she also gets loads of good ones, where she walks past a dog and it doesn't react and she doesn't react and it's like yay you did it! She's had her first butt sniff in aages this past month, and she seems so much happier :/

Some good advice guys, thankyou, gonna work on watch me and heel as a command. Will stick with her collar though, we genuinely have tried a harness front and back clip, she will pull with a front clip, whether it means falling face first when she trips herself up or not, she looks like a bloody cartoon! I will stop the incessant chatter, she probably is just zoning me out.

I second the advice to use treats that are especially high-value. Our spaniel was an absolute demon when we got her for pulling - her nose would go to the floor and she'd be yanking my arm off. With her it was chopped up bits of special sausage from our local butcher - we went through a phase where it felt like I spent 96% of every week grilling sausages for her walks, but she learned almost immediately that it was worth walking to heel.

I had a vet similar rescue,bless her. If you look up Victoria Stilwell, 'It's me or the Dog' on You Tube, treats & verbal commands are way better for walking to heel. Body blocking her adds to her anxiety .Re other dogs: stop, turn around & walk away a few steps as distraction . If she ignores them , treat & verbal praise. Anything else ramps up her anxiety. Ignore Cesar Milan, it's really dated dominance theory. And he gets bitten. A lot. (Victoria never has been).