AIBU to force my dog to walk by my side and pull her back in line when she's ahead of me?

[Amireallybeingmean]

Putting myself at the mercy of AIBU because if I am then I feel awful and need a brutal bollocking. Its mega long, sorry! Skip to last paragraph if you dont want background.

Dog is my baby, love her to pieces, spoil her rotten, work from home or take her to work, take her on holidays, sleeps in our bed, goes to nana and grandads for sunday dinner, gets more Christmas presents that we do.

Where we used to live we would walk in open spaces, she has an extendable lead and just roamed, so she never learned to walk to heal. We now live in a built up area, she needs to walk close on a short lead otherwise she would wander onto the road (like all the other dogs round here).

She is also dog reactive after two dog attacks a few years ago, progress is slow, we take massive steps back anytime an out of control dog chases/barks/lunges at her.

We've seen dog trainers and now have a very good system in place that is really working for her, the progress in the last few months is incredible. She has training walks on our estate to work on lead work and focus, ball games on a quiet field and rural walks with non-reactive dogs to build her confidence socialising. We recently had our dog walker for a week while I was away, he was amazed, said she was like a different dog and whatever I'm doing is awesome.

So AIBU...
The training walks are on a 6ft lead, I hold the handle in one hand and the length of the lead in the other, she has enough lead to walk shoulder to hip with me (big dog) and have a loose lead. When she reacts to a dog she gets a firm no and a quick tug back, maybe takes two tugs to get her to keep walking again if it's a dog she doesn't like and she's lunging. When she pulls, I stop walking, if she doesn't come back I use the back of my leg, kinda cross it across my other leg (as though I desperately need a wee) and push her back with my calf, if she's too far forward I'll reach forward and pull her back by her collar, so she's inline with me and we set off walking again. Shes got used to moving back when I stop but these walks involve a lot of stops. I also talk to her alot stuff like "it's annoying isn't it but you could just walk with me" "if you stopped barking at them they'd stop barking at you".
A woman screamed at me today saying I'm horrible to her and to stop kicking her, tried to explain I'm not kicking her, just using the back of my leg to push her back, it's less disruptive than leaning down and pulling her backwards but if I dont bring her backwards shes still gonna be pulling when we set off again. But she was just screaming and dog started crying so I just took her inside.
Am I being horrible to her by forcing her to walk to heal and pulling her back when she pulls? Shes a happy dog, excited when I get her lead, happy when we get back and cuddly with me, well fed etc. I dont want to be upsetting her but when she pulls she chokes herself and makes herself more anxious so she's more reactive. Shes so much calmer now and she's a large breed that if she was pulling and lunging at everything people would think she's dangerous, despite being a big cry baby that runs in circles crying when attacked.

You do realise you have to provide a picture of your dog now?

She pulls, you stop, let lead go tight, bring her back to you round in a circle so you're facing the right way, stop and wait 5 seconds, repeat as necessary. That's how we taught it with a trainers assistance, & no ones ever had to accuse me of kicking my dog - you need something you're happy to do in public as you'll do it a lot until she gets it.

I was taught to stop if he pulled and turn back if he continued

That’s poor advice. A dog doesn’t associate “oh I pulled too often” with ending the walk, unfortunately they aren’t that intelligent!

OP have you tried an anti pull harness? I have a large, strong dog and an anti pull harness which goes under her armpits (so the “pull” action is sort of lifting her front legs) as opposed to on her neck. A large dog should absolutely not be walked in a collar if it leans or pulls as it can hurt or damage their necks. Equally I had my dog in a harness and all she did was lean on the front which was dangerous.

No doubt several people will be on to tell me how awful I am for using and anti pull but three “checks” on an anti pull is better than 30 mins leaning on a harness/collar.

My dog isn’t reactive to other dogs but she is a STRONG scent dog so prone to take off/lunge for the smell at a moments notice.

YANBU at all. Far too many namby pamby dog owners and people around who don’t discipline their dogs, hence why there are so many disobedient dogs around.

And FFS don’t get a harness, it just makes pulling for them easy!! But then I’m an evil dog owner who walks my (perfectly to heel at all times) dog on a slip lead

@Poshjock the babe in question :) didnt want peoples perceptions to be skewed by her breed.

@BooFuckingHoo2 never seen one but it might work for her, ill deffo look into it. I do worry about her neck, which is why I don't let her pull and push her from her chest rather than letting her pull on her neck, but every harness she's had hasn't worked for her.

@Parkandride we tried it with one of the dog trainers, she just thinks it's a game and started spinning and jumping 😂

See you think of her breed and the problems she has with dogs and you think, dangerous aggressive, focused on attacking. She's an absolute dope, she's not aggressive, no dog trainer except the most recent random lass that turned up at our previous trainers has ever said she's being aggressive (she hadn't even seen her interact with a dog when she decided this), she's being a fucking loon, desperately wants to play but is scared of the dog, she literally goes into "ahhh what do I do?....EVERYTHING!" So the other dog goes "woah stay away from me!" So now that's reaffirmed the "I didnt even do anything and that dog started going mad at me" side.

Hi. I am a qualified canine behaviourist. Sadly the methods your trainer has advised you to use actually make reactive dogs worse, are damaging to emotional and physical wellbeing, and damage the bond between dog and owner.

Pulling on a neck collar can cause tracheal collapse, optical nerve injury, thyroid damage, spinal cord injuries. Please put your dog in a harness and don't pull them. There are many kind methods to teach dogs to walk nicely on a lead, and many kind ways to teach them that other dogs are a good thing, without flooding her.

Please seek the help of a force free behaviourist.

Dog training is not a regulated industry so ask what qualifications they have.

OMG she is gorgeous. And just a fabulous size for hugs. I bet she'd love my big lad, he wants to play but he's so big that he intimidates other dogs and he plays HARD, he loves to body check luckily we have a few doggie friends who have large dogs that can cope with his play.

I do love Rotties. Gorgeous eyes

How much exercise does she get in a day OP?

@Amireallybeingmean
Have you tried teaching her focus, doing impulse control training and counter conditioning?

Dog reactivity is driven by fear and tanking and shouting at a fearful dog rarely results in positive behavioural change

Ah owning a rottie freaking out about other dogs is hard going...

Mine was properly dog aggressive, had to be muzzled when out as he reacted so badly - and yes people do react completely differently to another breed acting the same way.

I used to jokingly call his walks dog wrestling, if it helps, lol

Tracheal collapse is unlikely in a big dog, however, her pulling is not nice for anyone, obviously. Does she have enough nose for a figure of eight? I recommended it to someone yesterday and it’s been a ‘revelation’ apparently.

Veterinari

Wise words.
Animals are wise too- and they seek the best possible resolution to their frustrations.
I have owned a number of dogs and exercise is a huge part of regulating behaviour. Miles of walks on a daily basis is absolutely paramount for big or robust breeds.
When a dog has energy drained then training is much easier.
Routine. Good food, lots of clean cool water grooming, affection, gentle dicipline.
Keeping up discipline in daily life is good for dogs.
Dogs are used to heirarchy.

So asking them to sit before being fed, no jumping up. Sofa visits by invitation only.
Dogs are OK by being told what to do. And we can still have an amazing realationship with our animals, kiss then on the shnozzle, hug them, play with them.
Never a need to shout at a dog. A dog feeling anxious will not respond well.
Create an opportunity for a dog to be calm, and show the the right way to behave- then reward.

Happy to be corrected but has pack mentality not been debunked?

Nothing more to add to the advice above, you have had some good advice already, but want to add that my big rottie cross (mixed with other breed) is a puller on walks when he gets excitable too and will react to reactive dogs IYSWIM so I'm sympathetic and in a similar boat of 1 step forward 2 steps back. It's hard and tiring but worth it in the end!

I started a thread in the dog section a couple of days ago and was recommended the double ended training lead too so going to have a go with that and see what like.

The shouty lady was clearly not in possession of all the facts! Upsetting for you (and Ddog!) but ignore the crazies, you know you aren't hurting/kicking her. Some people are batshit.

Also what a gorgeous beast she is! Looking very shiny and happy!

Happy to be corrected but has pack mentality not been debunked?

Depends on the ideas you have about pack behaviour.

Modern ideas about pack behavour view canines as sophisticated creatures, altruistic, sensitive, but still behaviour rules are in place.
Dogs need to be treated with respect, emotional and social needs met, but as owners we are still able to establish good relationships and control outcomes.

My understanding, after watching various experts on TV, is that all dogs should be kept on a short enough lead that they are forced to walk right beside you at all times.

We have just seen a dog trainer who says you need to pull dogs to the side or behind you as they believe they are being protective if they are ahead so can become aggressive. If they are at the side that lets them know there’s no danger that you couldn’t handle.

Harnesses aren’t very good for dogs with behaviour issues, you need to keep control of their head, so no harness and use a slip lead with a gentle pull.

The guy on dogs behaving badly does the tug on the neck. He said it is like. Tap on the shoulders. Sounds like you are a wonderful owner and this has just knocked your confidence x

Clumsyvolcano

This trainer has given you some very poor advice rhat will likely make the behaviour of any reactive dog worse. Reactive behaviour driven by fear and anxiety, a dog feeling it needs to protect itself. Any negative things happening in the presence of other dogs can make that fear worse and therefore, the reactive behaviour gets worse.

Highly advise against the use of slip leads, figure of 8s, anything of the like. Harnesses help to keep the dog physically safe so as not to cause any damage.

Tracheal collapse is unlikely in a big dog,

This is incorrect

Excuse my typos, I am doing 3 things at once.

My understanding, after watching various experts on TV, is that all dogs should be kept on a short enough lead that they are forced to walk right beside you at all times.

Thanks for that.

I disagree though.
Leads are necessary at time of course.
Dogs should choose to walk at heel because that is the best choice to be, it is full of fun, love and rewards. Even without a lead.

Rayn there have been a wealth of complaints about that show and that trainer from well known professionals in the industry. He does not conduct training based on any recent scientific studies and instead works off outdated ideas which are proven to be detrimental to the dog. Wish they'd take him off tv.

Agree OP sounds like she cares and wants to do the best buy her dog x

Clicker training made an enormous difference to our dog. Commands/sentences all get completely lost when they are in a state.

Started at home so just all day every day - CLICK - high value treat and praise. Didn't take long before that click word just captivate his attention because it meant high value treat and praise.

Then moving outside click well before you approach the other dog. That would get him in the mesmerised state of potentionally eating a baby bel. He would be so distracted he often wouldn't notice the other dogs.

With lunging, yanking back makes it 100% worse. We used to change direction. So just turn and do a circle. You do the same with horse when they try to bolt, turn and it completely takes out the balance/focus to go forward.

Our dog isn't unreactive, still growls, but he keeps moving forward.

Why can't you use a positive reward based method to train her to heel?

I watch dogs behaving badly and the trainer guy on there does the leg thing and standing in front of them if they react to a dog.

@speakout

Happy to be corrected but has pack mentality not been debunked?

Depends on the ideas you have about pack behaviour.

Modern ideas about pack behavour view canines as sophisticated creatures, altruistic, sensitive, but still behaviour rules are in place.
Dogs need to be treated with respect, emotional and social needs met, but as owners we are still able to establish good relationships and control outcomes.

I would absolutely agree with your last paragraph, I think they need to be able to trust that you have situations in hand and look to you if things go awry.

This is still a massive WIP for us when outdoors but as a previously anxious, barking, hypervigilant and pee/poo-ing in the house dog with his prior owner, he has massively improved with me. I hope that is partly because of my chilled out attitude around the house, not shouting at him (he would hide if I muttered grumpily at my old and useless phone for eg) and a lot more toilet outings and general exercise.

Maybe I am confusing pack mentality to dominance training a la the terrible Cesar Milan.