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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to force my dog to walk by my side and pull her back in line when she's ahead of me?

61 replies

Amireallybeingmean · 08/10/2020 20:48

Putting myself at the mercy of AIBU because if I am then I feel awful and need a brutal bollocking. Its mega long, sorry! Skip to last paragraph if you dont want background.

Dog is my baby, love her to pieces, spoil her rotten, work from home or take her to work, take her on holidays, sleeps in our bed, goes to nana and grandads for sunday dinner, gets more Christmas presents that we do.

Where we used to live we would walk in open spaces, she has an extendable lead and just roamed, so she never learned to walk to heal. We now live in a built up area, she needs to walk close on a short lead otherwise she would wander onto the road (like all the other dogs round here).

She is also dog reactive after two dog attacks a few years ago, progress is slow, we take massive steps back anytime an out of control dog chases/barks/lunges at her.

We've seen dog trainers and now have a very good system in place that is really working for her, the progress in the last few months is incredible. She has training walks on our estate to work on lead work and focus, ball games on a quiet field and rural walks with non-reactive dogs to build her confidence socialising. We recently had our dog walker for a week while I was away, he was amazed, said she was like a different dog and whatever I'm doing is awesome.

So AIBU...
The training walks are on a 6ft lead, I hold the handle in one hand and the length of the lead in the other, she has enough lead to walk shoulder to hip with me (big dog) and have a loose lead. When she reacts to a dog she gets a firm no and a quick tug back, maybe takes two tugs to get her to keep walking again if it's a dog she doesn't like and she's lunging. When she pulls, I stop walking, if she doesn't come back I use the back of my leg, kinda cross it across my other leg (as though I desperately need a wee) and push her back with my calf, if she's too far forward I'll reach forward and pull her back by her collar, so she's inline with me and we set off walking again. Shes got used to moving back when I stop but these walks involve a lot of stops. I also talk to her alot stuff like "it's annoying isn't it but you could just walk with me" "if you stopped barking at them they'd stop barking at you".
A woman screamed at me today saying I'm horrible to her and to stop kicking her, tried to explain I'm not kicking her, just using the back of my leg to push her back, it's less disruptive than leaning down and pulling her backwards but if I dont bring her backwards shes still gonna be pulling when we set off again. But she was just screaming and dog started crying so I just took her inside.
Am I being horrible to her by forcing her to walk to heal and pulling her back when she pulls? Shes a happy dog, excited when I get her lead, happy when we get back and cuddly with me, well fed etc. I dont want to be upsetting her but when she pulls she chokes herself and makes herself more anxious so she's more reactive. Shes so much calmer now and she's a large breed that if she was pulling and lunging at everything people would think she's dangerous, despite being a big cry baby that runs in circles crying when attacked.

OP posts:
Clumsyvolcano · 09/10/2020 23:19

@Propercrimboselecta

This particular trainer is extremely well qualified over 20 years and has achieved great results with countless dogs and works with a rescue centre.

In his experience, using harnesses while training is not the correct approach as this builds tension in the shoulders. By using a slip lead you don’t need to yank just ensure you have control and teaching the dog that the owner has control of any situation that makes the dog anxious. It has worked so far with our dog as she is becoming noticeably less stressed when on walks and with people in general.

Propercrimboselecta · 09/10/2020 23:26

The majority of reputable dog training organisations in the UK do not allow use of slip leads for many reasons. They have been proven to contribute to psychological and physiological problems.

I'm heading out of this thread for now so good luck with your dog OP x

AmIACowBag · 09/10/2020 23:32

I'd be concerned if I see someone doing that to a dog. But I've never owned a dog so have no idea how to train them. It doesn't sound nice though does it.

2bazookas · 10/10/2020 00:16

All our dogs learned the command "walk to heel" (on and off the lead). which meant their nose could be just ahead of my knee but keeping the lead slack, no pulling. They were taught "Wait" , so they would stand still at heel waiting to cross the road, then "Walk on". when it was safe for us to cross. I also used "wait" " to delay them so I went through doors ahead of the dog. "Wait" was also used when I opened the car boot, so the dog would stay put and not jump out until I was ready. ""Wait" when I put the dogs d inner dish on the floor, they had to wait for "on you go" go ahead before starting to eat.

It just takes time, patience, endless repetition, but well worth it so that you and the dog are both at ease and walking in comfort ( without pulling on the lead/dog's neck) Our dogs were adult rescues with no previous training so it's never too late.

  If your dog starts pulling, I would immediately  say (not shout) no,  and stand still , Only when he  is stationary and NOT pulling, do you tell him to walk to heel and set off again. Every time he pulls you say no and stand still You may find  there's an awful lot of stop- start stop start but he'll get the message in  the end. 

      Teach recall in the garden, or  some other enclosed space,  and call the dog back and forth short distances  between you and your partner, from one person to the other  so the dog gets some sense of   

the required direction and destination.

speakout · 10/10/2020 05:54

I think lead training will be most successful if done within a framework of obedience.
A dog needs to learn that you are in control, that your commands are to be obeyed.
Younger dogs need to go through intense training where commands are given many times thoughout the day. To sit before crossing a road, before receiving food, to practice sit, stay, lie, come, wait.
In the garden, walking to heel for short periods but frequently. To wait to be told when to jump into the car, to be told when to leave the car.
When a dog sees you in charge then training to walk at heel and lead training becomes much easier.
It may sound authoritarian but training with love, affection, treats and rewards - never punishment- will leave your dog feeling happy, calm and secure.
Training a dog should be a pleasurable experience for the animal- and the owner too!

FenellaMaxwell · 10/10/2020 06:11

Well firstly, you’ve nearly illustrated why extendable leads are so utterly crap.

You can’t pull on the dog’s neck. That’s really bad for them, have a look at a harness and double lead.

Nothing you are doing is going to stop your dog being reactive, and all the spoiling is doing her no favours either - you can’t have no boundaries anywhere and also expect her to obey this one thing.

Lastly, no form of ‘punishment’ is going to be effective here as you’ll only heighten her reactivity. And dragging her back is a punishment from her perspective. You need to work on positive training - keep whatever is your dog’s most high value treat in a bag in your hand or pocket. When you start training, give your chosen command - heel, to me, here or whatever - and give her the treat held right against your leg. At the beginning, literally every few metres you repeat this then widen the distance and every time she pulls ahead don’t yank her back, do the same thing.

Amireallybeingmean · 10/10/2020 10:27

@Poshjock she's the same, she's big and excited and little dogs dont like that so they are aggressive to her but we've made really good progress with introductions by walking with good dogs, I dont let her close until shes calmed a bit so we just walk with them, then when shes ready I direct her to the back end of the dog and she sniffs and shes doing amazing at being close to dogs that are well behaved.

Its passing dogs on the street. The thing is, most of the dogs she reacts to are dogs that are doing the exact same thing and worse, barking lunging, dragging their owners about, running into roads. Shes good with well behaved dogs, but she obviously anxious while we're walking that we're going to bump into an aggressive dog and no amount of avoidance fixed that. I tried it for 18 months and it just got worse, because turning back when a dog we see is reactive is teaching her to run away, its teaching her that dogs are bad. Whereas now, we pass them anyway, and she IS learning that actually, nothing bad happens, yes they chat shit, but they dont actually hurt you. When we kept our distance she didnt know they couldn't hurt her. So that method of staying away from dogs or distracting her from dogs with food so she doesn't see them works when it works, but made the problem bigger so when we couldn't get away from dogs or when the dog reacted she was so much worse and it made her world tiny and her frustrated. She couldn't go hiking, couldnt go to the park etc because we had to constantly avoid dogs and her distance just got bigger and bigger.
Honestly, the vast majority of the advice we've already tried for a long time, and I dont mean that nastily, I mean I haven't gone straight to the easiest answer, I've been trying for years, we've been doing positive only and avoidance for over a year and gone backwards, and not just reactivity but she was a mess, walking was constantly her looking for dogs and trying to avoid them, it just taught her that dogs were to be avoided, it doesn't work for her, I started this a few months ago with a new trainer and already made progress.

And I understand that punishment makes dogs hide their emotions, I can see her body language, I know she's less anxious than she was when walking, I can see when she's getting anxious and dont push her deliberately to her limit, but we dont walk away now, we cross over and walk on the other side, I slow down so there just happens to be a car in the way at the closest point, we walk in an arc past the dog, she's not avoiding in her eyes, she's just walking past a dog. The point of tugging her back isn't a physical punishment its shes going in the wrong direction, "look forward, walk with me" and I either say her name, or "this way" it's just redirection, that actually reaches her when the smell of sausage didnt. And with the collar she's looking ahead, where she's walking, or at me, with a harness she's looking everywhere. No dog trainer ever recommended a harness for her, it's always a tight fitting collar high on the neck.

She does have great obedience, she sits at the road, she sits for her dinner, she doesn't eat anything until she's told she can, she comes when I shout her in the house and any enclosed space. Shes not some wild dog running riot, she is literally a diamond, I worked so hard on her obedience, until a dog barks at her, and then her brain just disconnects from me, she cant hear me, cant see the treats in my hand she's just gone. But in the past few months that has totally changed, she gets by most dogs, and the ones she doesn't she lunges once then looks at me and we walk on. It is working.
I just had a massive confidence knock because I'd never be nasty to her and then someone told me I was abusing her and it's like, either this is ok or I accept that my dog will always be reactive, I've tried the other way, it didnt work for her, and if I were to put her on a harness without fixing the reactivity I would never be able to walk her, I would not physically be able to hold her, few people could.

And I feel awful that I now have a dog that I physically cant handle on a harness, I see people being dragged about by their big dogs and think, if you cant handle the dog you shouldn't have got him, but i worked so hard, I studied the breed, I trained her from the day we got her, she grew at the perfect rate, I cooked her food from scratch to make sure she got the exact right balance of nutrient to grow her joints properly to prevent hip problems, she was so good, I focused so hard on training and socialisation, yes i forgot walking to heel because we had open spaces, but she was so good, and now, because other people let their dogs run across a field and attack her, I lost that easygoing dog I could just let off and play with a group of dogs and its heartbreaking. I'm just doing the best I can for her to play with dogs again.
I've bought her a "coat" that says training on it so we can go the park instead of walking round here, hopefully it'll help with people not letting their dogs run straight up to her

OP posts:
Ccccchanges · 10/10/2020 10:45

It sounds like you’re doing absolutely fine and trying your hardest to provide a safe and happy existence for your lovely dog to me! Flowers

One other thing I would add is you can get things to slip over your lead that say “training” or “anxious dog please keep away” that might be a good idea too?

Dodgydreamer · 10/10/2020 10:52

It really sounds like you are doing a great job Amireally I think you can relax about the woman shouting abuse at you, what you are doing is not abuse at all. You are trying to find what works best for your dog and that's great!

I can imagine having to do similar if my back went again and I couldn't bend tbh. My dog would be no more phased by gentle pressure with the soft bit of my leg on his chest than he would me redirecting him with gentle (as in not tugging sharply) pressure to his harness or collar.

He's bumped into my knees with more force under his own steam around the house and not seemed to notice! They make for solid dogs and gentle, even pressure doesn't hurt them.

Amireallybeingmean · 10/10/2020 11:46

Thank you guys for all the support
@Ccccchanges just got on today, she had a collar that said nervous but I dont think anyone saw it, she has a jacket and it says training along the length of her back. I think it might be working, we've just got back and I noticed a dog that was off lead running about that she was getting upset about be called back and they went a different way and it also gave me the confidence to ask someone who had a well behaved dog if we could walk with them, she struggled but only lunged and barked once and I took her away after that but she did get to the point where she got to smell her bum lol
@Dodgydreamer yeah see thats a good point! She charges full speed into my kneecap and it blody hurts me but she doesn't even notice! Grin

OP posts:
WiddlinDiddlin · 10/10/2020 22:22

The collar corrections will work until she builds up sufficient muscle round her neck that it no longer hurts, then it will stop working. (Or alternatively the damage done to soft tissues will eventually cause such pain that she will start to react and realise you can't physically stop her).

yes, of course the avoidance alone does not work, you have to practice avoidance until you know what distance you can work at, THEN pair the sight of other dogs with a high value reinforcer, to alter the emotional response.

Then you can start working on getting nearer, ensuring you are not constantly pushing to close that distance (*or you risk trigger stacking) but sometimes working on closing the distance, sometimes stepping back and increasing to give her brain a break and ensure she has time for stress hormone levels to drop.

For a dog that significantly outweighs the handler or for some other reason cannot be physically held back (wheelchair handler for example), I would use a harness with a front clip and back clip, double ended lead, and then condition the dog to be happy to wear a suitable safe headcollar (Dogmatic is pretty good) so you have the headcollar on a separate lead (ideally one you can feel the difference in so thinner guage, different material etc, without having to look), giving you emergency brakes if required.

Currently, you are relying on your dog being more scared of you than whatevers approaching, this will fail in the long term.

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