To not want to be called "thick"

[WickedEmoji]

I am quite annoyed. DS's who are teens at the stage where they are always right and know everything just called me thick because I didnt know some obscure grammar that is now taught to year 6.

I am of the generation that was never formally taught grammar at school. I acheived all A and B grades, went to uni, had a career and achieved managerial status. All without knowing what a subjunctive clause, adjective noun phrase or whatever they are calling them, are.

Children use grammar, such as the use of I, me, you, we, with out knowing the technical terms of subject and object case or first person or second person perspectives.

A lot of the angst about teaching grammar is about the notion that if a child learns the technical terms it will improve their language use. It doesn't, as a general rule. (And on rules, there are things like bever start a sentence with never, I before e, which always have "exceptions") Generally language comes from immersion.

There are writing techniques that need to be taught, absolutely, but writing is more "artificial" than speech as you do not have the tone and body language context to draw on.

Language is not a recipe and its usage changes. The ability to communicate is more important than being able to name the technical term of the sentence type you just wrote.

So AIBU to be annoyed that I am considered "thick" because I do not know the technical terms?

(And yes, I have probably made grammatical errors in this post, and will have pedants pick them up, but I feel I have been fairly clear -as is the point if communication- so engaging in my grammar mistakes rather than the discussion says more about them than me)

Mine wasn't taught it at primary overseas. Taught it by year six teacher just before SATs, passed without a problem. It's hardly a measure of how intelligent you are.

I think there are two different issues here.

They were being rude and I would have been very strict on that. (One of my own sons used to say "but that's not a valid reason" when asked to do something at about the same age - we cracked down on that pretty hard with computer bans, because it's just so annoying and rude!)

However, I don't think learning grammar is a bad thing as such, although I wouldn't criticise anyone who didn't have the opportunity. I learnt some grammar at school - more than younger people did, but probably more in the context of learning foreign languages than my own - and then I studied linguistics at university and learnt a lot more about it. I genuinely find it very interesting. One of the main things I learnt is that modern linguistics isn't about imposing rules on people who don't naturally use them, it's about trying to work out the rules of the language as it is actually spoken (the reason for a lot of this research nowadays is to help make machine translation more accurate and natural feeling).

Long story short, there's nothing wrong with not having learnt grammar but IMO there's nothing wrong with learning it either, and it might spark a lifelong interest for some children. I do agree that some of these stylistic techniques like fronted adverbials and powers of three are very overrated.

Your problem is not about knowing some grammar rules.

Your problem is that your children have the audacity to call you thick.

As for language, then yes there are recipes, that's exactly what grammar and syntax are.

"What's for dinner?"
"Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't make enough for you. The recipe only makes enough for one and I'm not clever enough to work out how much to make for you."

That kind of thing a few times should help.

English graduate here. I could no longer tell you what to do with a gerund, still less a gerundive - though I used to know these things a long time ago. Adolescents are very trying, I do know that! I can even recall being that age and knowing so much more than these ‘old folk’. YANBU they are being a pain, OP.

I would be angry about being said to be "not clever" by my dc because it is rude and disrespectful.

I'm glad dc are taught grammar now, though, and I recognise the value of it. It's frustrating to know that something is or isn't correct but not to have the tools to explain why. It's helpful when learning other languages to have a good understanding of your mother tongue. That many of us achieved good qualifications and jobs without a good understanding of the grammar of our language is no reason not to teach grammar rules to our dc. Like most people I have had to do a lot of self teaching to formalise knowledge I have picked up throughout a lifetime of using English and I can see why it is now part of the curriculum.

If my dc were being rude because I didn't know something, one, I would address the rudeness, two, I would point out the difference between knowledge and intelligence, and three, if feeling particularly petty and in the mood to make a point, ask them to explain something I have been taught about which they haven't and then enquire as to whether their inability to do so meant that they were "not clever".

So AIBU to be annoyed that I am considered "thick" because I do not know the technical terms?

My son is the same age. He is disabled and struggles hugely with language but isn’t “thick” in the slightest. Your children sound ill mannered. Discussions about your intelligence are the least of your problems.

It is never too late to learn. If you hear terms you don't recognise, look them up. It is useful when learning other languages to understand how the nuts and bolts of English work.

I think it's good that grammar is taught now. It wasn't when I was at school and I've had to muddle along working out rules as I go.

I absolutely cannot believe your kids spoke to you that way though! Appalling rudeness.

I've got a degree in English Literature but know very few grammatical terms.
My 6 year old asks me questions I don't know the answers to!

Same generation OP - remember being taught noun/verb and that’s about it. However, compared to the spelling and grammar of the current cohort, I’m fekkin’ Shakespeare..........

Should of/could of particularly annoy me - have explained repeatedly why usage is wrong but might as well be talking to a brick wall .

They are children. You're the parent. My own mother would have hit the roof if I ever called her thick, that is awful disrespectful behaviour on their part.

There are a lot of things we learn in school and then forget and it doesn't mean any of us are thick. I did advanced maths but haven't used it since so I wouldn't be able to remember most of the equations and names etc. I wouldn't expect to be called thick for that, especially not by a teenager. Your problem here is their attitude and no debates should be taking place.

@Macncheeseballs

Clare blue - 'your children' not 'you're children'

Of course, thanks. I would blame autocorrect but I won't.

@FreezerBird

"What's for dinner?" "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't make enough for you. The recipe only makes enough for one and I'm not clever enough to work out how much to make for you."

That kind of thing a few times should help.

If my DC said that to me I’d be most pissed off that they didn’t know the difference between being thick and being ignorant. Apparently in my heart of hearts I care more about the accurate use of words than I do about manners.

FWIW I’m also in my late 40s, well educated and far from thick but willing to admit my abject ignorance when it comes to formal English grammatical terminology.

I too wasn't taught much in the way of grammar in school other than the basics. I learned more about it in later life - apostrophe use when I attended a Word Processing course, and other grammar terms when learning Spanish and French.

My DS is a bit of a clever clogs - but he wouldn't dare to call me thick (and I don't think he thinks I am) He is very useful and I often ask him to explain things to me.

Teenagers are another breed though. I would nip this cheekiness in the bud.

How many of them are there?

YANBU and this is a problem I have with my stepson. He comes home from college and tells us about this and that that he's learned that day. He's studying philosophy and tries to have debates with us, and just outright tells us we're wrong (surely allowing opinions is part of debating?) and if we don't know about x who said y in 1804 we too are thick, and he will come out with things like 'how the hell don't you know this' or 'is this why you've got a shit job Dad because you know nothing'.

I've explained to him that being able to recite fact after fact doesn't make you 'clever'. It just means you 'know things', which isn't the same thing. A parrot can recite things. I've told him he would be much cleverer if he learned to see things from other points of view, and use the information he's learned to make informed opinions of his own rather than just rattling off someone else's and stating it as fact. I've also said that yes, you know the name of philosophers, you can solve mathematical problems, BUT you still rely on me and your dad to cook for you, do your washing, and lots of other things, and the things that we can do that he can't (or won't) are much more valuable in life than the things he can do that we can't - which he almost certainly won't ever use after next June.

He is a smart boy academically but my god, he's rude to go with it sometimes.

I mean, I will point out that I got 4 Bs at A Level, back when A*s weren't a thing and straight As weren't common either - so I do have 4 strong grades, plus a degree, AND a lot of life experience including building up two businesses. So to be called thick by a 17yo is really galling and I think disrespectful.

It’s nothing to do with how intelligent they are and EVERYTHING to do with being outrageously rude. What were the consequences for behaving like this?

"I can't do grammar but I can read."

They have maybe picked up on that type of sneery attitude if it displayed in everyday life and not just online.?

It is rife in society and in their online world and knowing it all is typical teen behaviour so it does come up anyway.

If you don't do it yourself in their hearing it helps when passing on the message that it's often felt to be obnoxious by the person on the receiving end.

Well, if you don't want your kids to call you thick, you could always learn the rules they are being taught in school, couldn't you? If they expect a year 6 kid to be capable of getting it, surely an adult could cope? Learning stuff doesn't have to end just because you're not in education any more, and there's an abundance of freely available info out there on the internet. Good luck!

Which generation is it who weren’t taught grammar at school? I was, my parents were and my 11 year old is being taught it. When did they take a break?

I was taught about nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs at primary school. That was about it! I've picked up a bit more since then through learning foreign languages (eg object v subject) but not much!

I was born in 1971.

I was taught some grammar but far less than my dc are currently being taught, and was at school in the 80s and 90s. I certainly never had to learn and explain what subordinating conjuctions or fronted adverbials were.

Just because you didn't learn the names of these things in school doesn't mean you can't learn them now. I find it really sad that so many people think that learning stops when they finish their mandatory education.

Set an example for your kids. Admit you don't know the technical terms for specificpartsof English grammar, even mention that it was not a topic taught when you were in school, but most importantly - go and look them up.

It's unlikelyproper grammar is going to cease being taught in school any time soon.If it makes you feel bad that a whole generation, starting with your kids, is soon going to be more educated than you, do something about it.

I just used to point out that I actually had all my bits of paper from CSE to PGCE, and ds hadn't got any yet. When he had surpassed my level of education, then he could call me thick, but not until then.

He now has an MA, which makes us both level 7, so he has to get a doctorate to surpass dh and I. Dh is a C.Eng, and dh and I both drive and ds doesn't. He keeps quiet these days!