To not want to be called "thick"

[WickedEmoji]

I am quite annoyed. DS's who are teens at the stage where they are always right and know everything just called me thick because I didnt know some obscure grammar that is now taught to year 6.

I am of the generation that was never formally taught grammar at school. I acheived all A and B grades, went to uni, had a career and achieved managerial status. All without knowing what a subjunctive clause, adjective noun phrase or whatever they are calling them, are.

Children use grammar, such as the use of I, me, you, we, with out knowing the technical terms of subject and object case or first person or second person perspectives.

A lot of the angst about teaching grammar is about the notion that if a child learns the technical terms it will improve their language use. It doesn't, as a general rule. (And on rules, there are things like bever start a sentence with never, I before e, which always have "exceptions") Generally language comes from immersion.

There are writing techniques that need to be taught, absolutely, but writing is more "artificial" than speech as you do not have the tone and body language context to draw on.

Language is not a recipe and its usage changes. The ability to communicate is more important than being able to name the technical term of the sentence type you just wrote.

So AIBU to be annoyed that I am considered "thick" because I do not know the technical terms?

(And yes, I have probably made grammatical errors in this post, and will have pedants pick them up, but I feel I have been fairly clear -as is the point if communication- so engaging in my grammar mistakes rather than the discussion says more about them than me)

And yes, they are being cheeky and were told so! Love some of your responses and will be saving them for future use!

Generally they are good kids, just being know-it-alls as teens can be!

Being called thick is just one of my triggers as there are residual feelings of not having achieved my potential, although I am happy with my lot in life

Your dc are rude, unreasonable and wrong. Lack of knowledge about something you've never been taught doesn't indicate a lack of intelligence. Maybe point out that you kindly didn't call them thick for not knowing the difference between knowledge and intelligence.

But as an MFL teacher I will defend the teaching of English grammar. Knowing how your own language works is a good thing, and it makes learning other languages much easier.

People (well, native English-speakers) are scared of grammatical terminology while being quite happy to learn mathematical or scientific terminology. When discussing books or talking about what makes a good sentence in an essay etc, it's quite useful to be able to refer to words and constructions by their actual names. People in other countries learn about their own language, which is probably one reason why they often speak foreign languages better than we do.

I teach adults a foreign language. One of the things that appeals to them and astonishes them about it is how much I teach them about English at the same time.

Apologies - a bit of a soap-box topic for me!

I cant do grammar, but I can read. They arent year 6

Jesus, you don't have to look far to see where they get it from.

Maybe if your post wasn't so full of pointless waffle we wouldn't have made that mistake.

But I'm out, you can deal with rude, obnoxious teenagers you've raised 🤷🏻‍♀️

Whether you have achieved your full potential or not, is irrelevant. You have already achieved more than they have. Educationally, and in terms of life experience. You have given them life, you have grown and nurtured them to the privileged point they are currently at. Pretty much all of what they currently are, they owe to you and DH.

Make sure they know their way around a washing machine, how to do a basic meal, and how to clean the bog - because they're likely to need these basic skills.

I remember my eldest being a proper little rhymes with switch at around 12-13. I downed tools, and said, you're making tea tonight. Here's the menu, here's the raw ingredients. Let me know if you need any help.

Haven't had to do it since. . .

At 14/15 if thick is the worst thing they are calling you then I'd say you're getting away lightly. You should hear what I get called by some of the young people I work with, I'd probably not even notice if they called me thick

What a load of rubbish. No idea who the young people you work with are but they’re presumably not your kids and therefore beyond your control.

If one of my sons spoke to me so utterly disrespectfully they’d get one chance to apologise before loosing every piece of tech they had, every privilege they had and quite possibly getting a clip round the ear to go with it (so shoot me).

Children only speak to their parents like dirt when they’ve learned it’s accepted for them to do so.

Your husband telling you ‘wisely’ to give up arguing that you’re not thick with your dc because you won’t win - I have no words. Your children being allowed to disrespect you clearly isn’t a one off.

@MJMG2015

I cant do grammar, but I can read. They arent year 6

Jesus, you don't have to look far to see where they get it from.

Maybe if your post wasn't so full of pointless waffle we wouldn't have made that mistake.

But I'm out, you can deal with rude, obnoxious teenagers you've raised 🤷🏻‍♀️

Apologies, I may be being cranky and I was out.of order there.

My dc used to come home from primary and mutter darkly about the stupidity of Fred, who didn’t even know what a fully loaded frontal adjectival adverbial noun was. I would agree that this was shocking.

It’s only now, 5 or so years on from this that my dc have realised I can just about manage to identify a verb, and if I’m really on form, a noun.

And like you , OP, I have A grades on my ancient certificates for English (no such thing as an A* in my day)

Screw standing for that from kids. Clearly they're the thick ones to not understand that their are consequences for their cheek - such as no pocket money this month, wifi privileges etc.

Your sons were very rude. I've never heard of of anyone not being taught grammar though, so we're obviously of different generations!

@DeliciouslyFemale

At 14/15 if thick is the worst thing they are calling you then I'd say you're getting away lightly. You should hear what I get called by some of the young people I work with, I'd probably not even notice if they called me thick.

What has your work and the young people you work with, got to do with a child being so ignorant to their own parent? You get paid to do your job, there’s a big difference.

Your husband should also have stepped in, OP and told them they were out of order. Don’t forget, you’re probably the one that taught them to wipe their own arses and they’d still be eating with their fingers, if you had t taught them how to use a knife and fork.

Does being paid mean I don't have to be respected? Being called thick is hardly ideal but there are far, far worse things that teenagers call their parents.

I agree with my fellow MFL teacher lazylinguist.

YANBU to object to being insulted by your teenagers. But YABVU to think that explicit grammar is not necessary just because you've got by without it. There are different ways to teach language, and by immersion with implicit grammar is certainly ideal for beginners. But explicit grammar knowledge is actually very useful both for mastering English and, especially, for being able to transfer knowledge of one's first language to learning another language. I've had to do all sorts of assignments and reading on different ways to teach grammar, so I do know what I'm talking about. Similarly to the way that you may have got by with using a word like 'sum' to talk about any calculation in mathematics, but children nowadays will be taught quite precise vocabulary for all their calculations. So it is with grammar: you might be able to communicate in English perfectly well without knowing the correct linguistic terminology, that doesn't make that an ideal situation or mean that you need to be defensive because education standards and pedagogy have moved on.

They said "wow, you are NOT clever, are you?"

I don't know these terms either (like you, I wasn't taught them). And I'm an Oxbridge Professor. If my kids said that to me, to be honest I'd just laugh! Or possibly use the opportunity to learn from them and test their understanding "Oh I don't know, I think I'm pretty smart, see if you are clever enough to teach me"

You seem to be less secure about this and not able to laugh it off. Or maybe the tone was ruder than in my head. In which case I'd quietly say something like "I don't think that was a very nice thing to say, do you?". Then change the subject.

@MJMG2015

I cant do grammar, but I can read. They arent year 6

Jesus, you don't have to look far to see where they get it from.

Maybe if your post wasn't so full of pointless waffle we wouldn't have made that mistake.

But I'm out, you can deal with rude, obnoxious teenagers you've raised 🤷🏻‍♀️

You were bloody rude to OP MJMG and deserved that response.

I’d say to them ok, we weren’t taught that at school, because we were simply taught how to use the language, not clinically deconstruct it.

Do they think the war poets were ‘thick’? Because they wouldn’t have been taught it either. Nor would Shakespeare, nor would any of their favourite authors.

Just because you haven’t been taught something doesn’t make you stupid. I would tell them that by their reasoning there is no reason why they should not get straight A* in every exam because ‘not being taught something’ isn’t an excuse for not knowing it...

I'm amazed at many of these responses. Your DH is right, there is nothing to be achieved by arguing with a know it all teenager, the best response is to laugh at them or ignore them when they come out with bullshit. Those who come down on them like a ton of bricks as suggested by many on here are just going to end up with adult children who don't want to spend time with them. Teenagers are opinionated and foolish and convinced they know everything, time teaches tolerance and as the adult you should model that rather than getting into a pointless battle with them when they insult you. The best defense is to ignore their insults. It's not like dealing with a small child, teenager need to be allowed to make mistakes and given space to apologise.

I’d just advise them if they are big enough to call me thick or whatever they are big enough do their own washing, cooking & cleaning and pay for their clothes, hobbies etc. then tell them you’ll sit back and them do it until they learn some [Effing] manners.

I would take a seriously dim view of DC calling me names.

I think your case isn't unique in the UK and it totally explains why British people struggle so much with learning other languages.

I've found my people. I wasn't taught grammar either it made learning French and German doubly difficult imo.

I have teens and one of them does try to patronise me. Which I am dealing with at the moment through sarcasm and router restrictions. If they are particularly cheeky they get a "I'm sorry, what did you just say to me" with a very cold stare.

They said "wow, you are NOT clever, are you?
How rude. That would have the reply, "I'm clever enough to work and provide for you two ingrates, so watch it buddy!"
I'd go on the work to rule too, no rides anywhere, meals only no extras. Films I want on and maybe even loss of internet/devices for a day or two.
See who's thick and not clever then? Two mouthy idiots who are rude to their mother and need to apologize/grovel for their rudeness.

I came down like a ton of bricks on my grown boys, they come by and spend a lot of time with us as we showed lots of love and affection and also strong boundaries. We still have one in year 11, she gets the same as the boys if she runs off at the mouth.

Personally I’d be hugely offended if my kids said that to me.
I’d also be pissed off with the DH for not supporting me and saying I’m not going to win this argument.
Learning has changed and will continue to change, their kids will probably say the same thing to them.
If you’re so thick then they can go out and work and support and look after the family. I’m sure they’re smart enough to do that then.
I don’t think it’s appropriate to say it doesn’t matter because they’re teenagers, quite the opposite.
I’m with you OP.

People (well, native English-speakers) are scared of grammatical terminology while being quite happy to learn mathematical or scientific terminology. When discussing books or talking about what makes a good sentence in an essay etc, it's quite useful to be able to refer to words and constructions by their actual names. People in other countries learn about their own language, which is probably one reason why they often speak foreign languages better than we do.

No I'm another one from the era where only very basic grammar was taught in schools in English. Oddly however I learnt more complex grammar in all the foreign languages I was taught at school.

Which generation is it who weren’t taught grammar at school?

I was, my parents were and my 11 year old is being taught it. When did they take a break?

I think it's more important that any generation is taught manners, rather than grammar.

I would probably have responded something like @irregularregular and @CountFosco and either have laughed or said “oooh aren’t we a smarty pants” etc. There are ways and means of pulling teens up without tearing a strip off them.

But as an MFL teacher I will defend the teaching of English grammar. Knowing how your own language works is a good thing, and it makes learning other languages much easier

Also to my fellow MFL teaches @fink and @lazylinguist I do believe that grammar teaching is important, but some of the terms they have introduced to the primary curriculum are beyond ridiculous..fronted adverbials anyone? I’ve never had to use that even at university studying languages. I bet most adults don’t know these terms and I’d hazard a guess that most primary school teachers had to look them up when they were suddenly introduced the curriculum. 😂