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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What’s the R number of MLM schemes?

241 replies

ReeseWitherfork · 04/10/2020 20:13

Goodness me the MLMs are ramping up! Or is it just the people I associate with?!

So I don’t have a “am I being unreasonable” but rather “how do I reasonably tell people they’re being idiots?” Does no one do any research before joining one? Because I can’t imagine google is telling them it’s a good idea.

I’ve only ever replied to texts telling me people have joined with a “thanks! xx” Has anyone been braver?

OP posts:
HowFastIsTooFast · 07/10/2020 15:36

Gosh reading this I feel lucky that I only have 1 Arbonne and 1 Herbalife on the periphery of my social circle.

I think the Arbonne seller blacklisted me though, when I attended a party to support the host of the party (she agreed to host when she was drunk Grin) After we'd been told at great length how amazing the circa £60 retinol stuff was I told the assembled Ladies that I pay less than £4 for mine from The Ordinary. Oops Wink

Newkitchen123 · 07/10/2020 16:21

On my Facebook today I see a local forever aloe whatever offering a deal for local businesses etc to buy a pack for hospice residents. Says it's no profit. One deodorant. One toothpaste. One hand gel. £15. £15!!
No shame!

YouokHun · 07/10/2020 16:37

@Newkitchen123 what an excellent way to boost her CCs! It can also be a way of trying to tap into the hospice “market” and it helps if you can fool people into thinking you’re being generous and charitable. It’s sickening.

Newkitchen123 · 07/10/2020 16:41

It's also tax refundable for those businesses claiming it back.
The mind boggles
I'm still stunned at the price of 3 basic items. If I bought those in a shop... Gel about 80p, toothpaste maybe £3 and deo £2. So less than six quid

Terralee · 07/10/2020 19:15

Got 2 colleagues selling Juice Plus.. one is a qualified Staff Nurse! But she says apparently JP can cure anything!

Both women are slim anyway but claim not to be & are doing lots of exercise while just drinking the JP shakes for breakfast.
Well, obviously they're losing weight & they're claiming it's the expensive JP shakes & supplements.

One young woman at work is a skint single mum who suffers hair loss, she's been sold JP Berry capsules at a small fortune to help her grow new hair.
I'm pretty sceptical & I think it's wrong to take money off her.

Surprisingly they haven't offered to sell me JP as I'm overweight & have suffered hair loss but they know I'm too skint & too cynical therefore unlikely to be a good er, victim.

AlexCabot · 07/10/2020 19:56

When I was diagnosed with cancer I had both Juice Plus and Forever Living huns try to flog me their magic juice/aloe to 'cure' me. Both were told to thoroughly fuck off and as the Juice Plus twat was a registered nurse she was also reported to the NMC. Dickheads.

YouokHun · 07/10/2020 20:12

@Terralee

Got 2 colleagues selling Juice Plus.. one is a qualified Staff Nurse! But she says apparently JP can cure anything!

Both women are slim anyway but claim not to be & are doing lots of exercise while just drinking the JP shakes for breakfast.
Well, obviously they're losing weight & they're claiming it's the expensive JP shakes & supplements.

One young woman at work is a skint single mum who suffers hair loss, she's been sold JP Berry capsules at a small fortune to help her grow new hair.
I'm pretty sceptical & I think it's wrong to take money off her.

Surprisingly they haven't offered to sell me JP as I'm overweight & have suffered hair loss but they know I'm too skint & too cynical therefore unlikely to be a good er, victim.

You're not vulnerable enough @Terralee and they know it. Sadly she is Sad

I hope these conversations and transactions are not taking place within the walls of an NHS hospital?! I would hate to think she's using her status as a nurse to convince others that her vegetable dust capsules do anything for anyone at all. To be honest I'd report that to her superior and her superior's superior. I once lost it with management in my local hospital because they were allowing FLP to trade in their foyer - this non evidenced wellness bollocks has no place in a healthcare setting where it is parasitically trying to gain credibility as a treatment or support option. There's nothing more disappointing than a medical person allowing themselves to hook up with a scheme like JP etc.

One of the functions of the 'sponsor an MLM product to donate to our nurses during Covid' has been to try and gain inroads to staff who are often poorly paid and can also offer "medical credibility" if they can be persuaded to sell some wellness rubbish. Arrrrghhh.

ReeseWitherfork · 07/10/2020 20:18

When I was diagnosed with cancer I had both Juice Plus and Forever Living huns try to flog me their magic juice/aloe to 'cure' me.
Gosh this is awful. I fear sometimes the reps actually believe this shit themselves. My younique friend couldn’t understand that her product wasn’t cruelty free and vegan. Just couldn’t fathom it at all.

OP posts:
Newkitchen123 · 07/10/2020 20:23

@AlexCabot

When I was diagnosed with cancer I had both Juice Plus and Forever Living huns try to flog me their magic juice/aloe to 'cure' me. Both were told to thoroughly fuck off and as the Juice Plus twat was a registered nurse she was also reported to the NMC. Dickheads.
No words!
YouokHun · 07/10/2020 20:24

crosspost with @AlexCabot who is right; report report report.

If I tried to sell MLM or recruit in my NHS clinical role I know for sure I would be disiplined and lose my professional status, and rightly so. It would be a serious black mark. It needs stamping out. It's appalling the approach made to you Alex at such a difficult time. It reminds me of a good friend of mine who had breast cancer. She called me to say that an old school friend who I knew vaguely that neither of us had seen for twenty years had got in touch to say she was sorry about my friend's illness and she'd love to catch up. My friend specifically commented to me that one upside was you really found out who your friends were and it was lovely to hear from people. She called me the day after their meet up and said that they had chatted for 10 mins before the woman bought out her Arbonne and started telling how it could really support her recovery and if she did recover it could be a really useful new direction. It was really upsetting for my friend; to be cynically exploited for someone else's monetary gain, with no thought. I'm glad to say my friend is well. The Arbonne hun is hopefully sitting among the Arbonne stock she was encouraged to buy by her upline that is now filling her back bedroom, and regretting her actions, though I doubt it.

Lucyccfc68 · 07/10/2020 20:43

My sister used to do Avon and then got herself involved with Younique. Over-priced crap, but she was convinced she would make an fortune out it it. I felt sorry for her, but there was no telling her. It got quietly dropped after about 6 months.

I have seen a few of the ‘life coaches’ popping up recently.

An old school friend on FB tagged me once and asked if ‘Aren’t you a coach who does this type of thing?’ Had to take a deep breath before I answered politely ‘No, I have a post-grad in executive coaching which is accredited by the ILM and a good, qualified coach would never claim to be able to guarantee someone a 6-figure salary’.

I do ‘coaching’ as part of my role at work and it is never about giving advice or promising miracles. It’s about using questioning techniques, psychology and observations to empower people to work though problems or issues, to help them to come to decisions for themselves. It’s about helping people to grow and develop at their own pace.

I am a member of a professional body, do regular CPD and also have a coaching supervisor (just like a counsellor does).

These people who claim to be life coaches on FB have done a 2 hour online course through Groupon, and think they are experts.

All MLM schemes just prey on women (a lot who are vulnerable) and suck them in with the promise of money, security and lots of fun. It’s awful.

YouokHun · 07/10/2020 20:43

[quote ReeseWitherfork]@YouokHun my first real exposure to MLM was a few years back when a friend joined Younique. (I’ve grown up with Avon and went to a few body shop and Ann Summers parties over a decade ago.) I couldn’t work out how my inexperienced friend was suddenly “starting her own make up business” and making the sort of money she claimed to be. So I did some research and one of the first google hits was a mumsnet forum where you had explained how they worked to someone else. Everything made sense, and I understood it enough to research further. And of course I’ve become very familiar with your username over the last couple of years of regular mumsnet use. You are the authority when it comes to the subject. Maybe “popular girl” was a bad analogy. Perhaps I’ll call you the “David Attenborough of hunbots”.

I thought the DSA were the regulatory body for MLMs! Shock

The changes you list sound necessary. And so important this year, especially with how women have been disproportionately affected (with their work/childcare balancing). I can imagine MLM is looking pretty good to the women who have been trying to juggle everything.[/quote]
The David Attenborough of hunbots Grin Grin

I don't know whether to laugh or cry @ReeseWitherfork! I definitely look more like DA than the cool girl at school! Actually there are many more who know more than me about MLM, many of them residing on other threads on Mumsnet. It is a rabbit hole and once you start looking at it and it's just so unbelieveable what goes on and what is allowed to continue.

As for the DSA; yep, not surprised you thought they were a regulatory body, that's what their director general says. When challenged she reduces it to "self regulatory" which is meaningless. I'm sure we are all comforted by the notion of Valentus or Forever Living "self regulating" Hmm

Yep, MLM does look tempting but the more people share the realities the more (I hope) people will question it. But the less options you've got the more tempting it seems.

@LivingDeadGirlUK it's such a tricky one isn't it. It's a big subject and they all operate slightly differently and present their wall of information slightly differently (despite the endless info it all says nothing at all). I think one of the problems is that at the moment for all the damage MLMs are doing during Covid, Covid itself is a distraction. I wonder if writing now is a wasted opportunity or very well timed (can't decide). I think I'd write a general letter, not focussing on one company but on the business model explaining your concern for his/her constituents...perhaps outlining the need for better legislation about transparency and independent monitoring. If you can cite a specific case of someone being damaged I think it helps. Perhaps we need a mass letter writing campaign to Rishi - though he probably likes people to get wrapped up in something that is cheap for the Government and won't ever be eligible for furlough!

AlexCabot · 07/10/2020 20:44

Sadly my experience is not unusual at all. I was part of an informal support group and pretty much all of us had some sort of approach.

YouokHun · 07/10/2020 20:53

Yes, I feel sorry for legitimate executive coaches @Lucyccfc68. It's a term being spoiled by all the mindset gurus. Though I am sure you're well distance from the MLM coaches and most sensible people wouldn't put you in the same bracket. Those coaches/mentors are usually people who have already discovered mlm is not viable and stepped sideways into talking utter bollocks and quoting bits out of The Secret.

I have a similar problem in that I'm a psychotherapist and there are quite a few "therapists" doing some stealth recruiting for various MLMs. I can think of one who must do some serious damaged to people but what can one do? "Therapist" is not a protected term.

Lucyccfc68 · 07/10/2020 21:02

@YouokHun

Yes, I feel sorry for legitimate executive coaches *@Lucyccfc68*. It's a term being spoiled by all the mindset gurus. Though I am sure you're well distance from the MLM coaches and most sensible people wouldn't put you in the same bracket. Those coaches/mentors are usually people who have already discovered mlm is not viable and stepped sideways into talking utter bollocks and quoting bits out of The Secret.

I have a similar problem in that I'm a psychotherapist and there are quite a few "therapists" doing some stealth recruiting for various MLMs. I can think of one who must do some serious damaged to people but what can one do? "Therapist" is not a protected term.

I have started to see quite a few ‘counsellors’ popping up on FB too, but with no mention of accredited qualifications or experience. I have started that journey - completed level 3 and am now doing level 5 and may well go on to do a Post-grad too. It will be a fair few years of training. I have been asked to provide counselling for people and always refuse, as I am not qualified.

Whilst coaching and counselling have professional bodies and I am sure Psychotherapist do to, there is little we can do about people who claim to be experts in these areas after doing a short course. It’s very worrying.

ContadoraExplorer · 07/10/2020 21:10

A friend, who knows how I feel about MLMs, asked me about Tropic and i said my piece. She said she used the products and was just wanting a discount on what she already bought but she has started already with the excessive sharing, going on about the "ethos" and trying to say it's not a pyramid scheme (sure its not 🙄) it's a lost cause because she has clearly already been brainwashed. I just hope she gets out before it's too late.

LivingDeadGirlUK · 08/10/2020 06:57

There have been a few posts about loving the Tropic products, getting the starter pack for themselves, and wanting the 25% discount. Thing is that 25% has been set into the price of the products after Susies own overheads and profit as a deliberat decision, like all MLM. Even if the products are good they are bad value simply by being sold as an MLM. She may be a vegan but she is certainly not ethical when it comes to the humans she runs her business off the back of.

LemonFanta123 · 08/10/2020 07:28

A guy I was dating a couple of years ago had the Herbalife logo tattooed on his arm 3 times as it “saved his life” 🤣🤣🤣

LivingDeadGirlUK · 08/10/2020 10:15

@LemonFanta123 oh wow that's tragic :P I'm quite happy with my job, just trying to imagine the reaction if I got a tattoo of the logo :P

Proudboomer · 08/10/2020 10:23

@AlexCabot

When I was diagnosed with cancer I had both Juice Plus and Forever Living huns try to flog me their magic juice/aloe to 'cure' me. Both were told to thoroughly fuck off and as the Juice Plus twat was a registered nurse she was also reported to the NMC. Dickheads.
I had a very similar experience but my husband had already died of the cancer so it was a shame she didn’t find me before as she could have cured him but never mind as both myself and children could start taking the wonder aloe juice so we to didn’t go the same way.

These bots will say anything to get you to buy their snake oil.

Scarlettpixie · 08/10/2020 10:55

Well some people join them just to get cheaper products and maybe make a few extra pounds. They are not expecting to make a fortune and are not trying to recruit anyone. I was an Avon rep for a few years and I still get people asking now if I still do it. People like the products.

I have a friend who is a body shop rep. It is her main job and she works really hard at it and does now have a 'family tree' of reps from whom I presume she gets a commission. While at parties she tends to ask people if they want to be a host, she only seems to mention becoming a rep on her facebook page so no hard sell. She appears to make a decent living at it. The products are popular among our friendship group and I usually attend a couple of parties each year. During lockdown, she has been hosting online events, sales and offering products delivered to your door. She has kept me in hand gel and wash when they were difficult to get. I can't see what she is doing wrong.

I have another friend who has recently started selling Tropic products. She is making daily posts to her new page which can be a bit annoying but there is the option to snooze or scroll past. I have purchased their skincare bundle as I needed some moisturiser and wasn't too impressed with my last body shop one. The one I used to buy isn't vegan and since I am, I no longer buy that one. All tropic stuff is natural and vegan and I am happy to give them a try. I have been using the products for a couple of weeks and really like them. I just ordered on line and added my friends name so she would get the commission - easy peasy.

Not sure what is objectionable to people about these products/companies. We have joined with our eyes wide open and with realistic expectations. I do realise that some companies/reps are more hard sell but am not sure they should all be lumped together. As with most things, you get out what you put in.

I don't agree with juice plus or vitamin pill type MLMs but that is because I am not convinced they work and so seem a bit of a con.

Scarlettpixie · 08/10/2020 11:01

@LivingDeadGirlUK

There have been a few posts about loving the Tropic products, getting the starter pack for themselves, and wanting the 25% discount. Thing is that 25% has been set into the price of the products after Susies own overheads and profit as a deliberat decision, like all MLM. Even if the products are good they are bad value simply by being sold as an MLM. She may be a vegan but she is certainly not ethical when it comes to the humans she runs her business off the back of.
But wouldn't this similarly apply to a shop who had to employ staff. Those costs would be built into the price. I am not sure I see the difference.

Ultimately it is up to the customer to decide if they think the product is worth the money or not.

Dug14 · 08/10/2020 11:12

I had one girl post that her daughters adhd was cured with juice plus. Deleted there and then.

(Or maybe she had stopped giving her lucozade tablets who knows)

ReeseWitherfork · 08/10/2020 11:35

Not sure what is objectionable to people about these products/companies.

99.6% of people lose money. LOSE money (as in, different from simply not making a profit).

MLM reps refer to themselves as “business owners”. They are not. They’re unsalaried sales reps.

MLMs operate by recruiting a downline. There is zero point to this - if anything, it’s counterproductive as you’re just recruiting competitors. I’m sure when you were an Avon rep you had a patch; this isn’t how they operate anymore unfortunately.

MLMs will allow anyone in who is willing to pay the money for the starter kit. There isn’t any training or application process. No one cares if you have any sales or marketing experience. There isn’t anything to help the people who haven’t.

There are often monthly sales targets. If reps don’t reach these, they’re penalised or they’re out. If they’re not going to make a target the only option is to meet the target themselves (ie become a customer).

They tell lies. They advertise themselves as vegan and cruelty free when they’re not. Apparently they’re claiming they can cure cancer (how anyone can attempt to defend them after reading some of the posts on here from people who have cancer is beyond me).

They prey on vulnerable women. Mothers are often recruited because “it’s a great way to make extra money from home so you can still spend time with your children”. Ignoring the fact it is almost impossible to make any money let alone a living wage.

I used to buy Avon stuff years ago when I had a local Avon lady and I loved some of the products. If I wanted to buy anything now I’d just buy directly.

OP posts:
AlexCabot · 08/10/2020 12:07

Proudboomer I'm very sorry to hear about your experience. When people sign up to these companies I can only assume that they also sign away their morals and any sense of decency.