What’s the R number of MLM schemes?

[ReeseWitherfork]

Goodness me the MLMs are ramping up! Or is it just the people I associate with?!

So I don’t have a “am I being unreasonable” but rather “how do I reasonably tell people they’re being idiots?” Does no one do any research before joining one? Because I can’t imagine google is telling them it’s a good idea.

I’ve only ever replied to texts telling me people have joined with a “thanks! xx” Has anyone been braver?

Yeah I always get disappointed when I see people partnering with MLMs. The apparently ethical clothes brand Frugi were doing promotions with Usbourn books. My running club was promoting a Body Shop raffle (I'm sure the raffles are illegal), even my bloody kids nursery have said they use Avon skin so soft on the kids and recommend it as the best product (almost became THAT parent but decided to let it go as its true, it is a good product, but ffs there must be other eucalyptus based creams out there).

SchrodingersImmigrant
MLM's and similar scams are all over some uni's.
'local uni working with' 'collaborating with' 'in partnership with' is usually some dodgy SU enterprise. Some SU's these days are toothless farces with no power, other than uni let them do all sorts as long as they do what marketing wants. Critical thinking is not encouraged.

Some PHD students produced their own version of MLM publicity. Didn't feature the normal hun bots, toes in the swimming pool, and white mercs. It's about paying off your debts on the side while studying, leaving uni debt free, harnessing the number of people around you, being able to afford your books, nice bindings, or materials, saving up towards your masters, (many aren't entitled to a loan) paying for your graduation, and supporting each other through your learning journey.

When it's well written you have to read it a couple of times to realize it's the same old same old, just written in a different subtler way, with different end goals, but it can apparently solve all your financial issues that stand between you and your academic dreams.

Certain groups can find it doing their communities and can't say much about it.

Smaller student societies get pushed into 'collaborating' with whatever the new shiny 'solves all ills' thing is. ie we were pretty much told we were now being put up as 'ambassadors' for a wellness app, and expected to use our society to publicize and promote it and 'grow' it using constant training and re-enforcement.
When we gave our first feedback we were accused of 'negativity.' It turned out to be being pushed as supposed to take some of the burden of uni MH services, but it didn't do much for anyone and made some people worse quickly. We said we couldn't promote it, pressure was applied, so we said it was unethical and were seen as 'disruptive.'
Soon after the Aloe Vera sellers rocked up keen to promote alongside their student 'entrepreneurial businesses' and get that uni logo onto their websites. Blind eyes turned all round.

A lot of poorer students are in financial hardship, and lecturers put pressure on, claiming the uni helps everyone and therefore no problems exist. A lot of pressure is put on to students from them to be able to afford the graduation ceremony, that others must (pay to) cheer you on, and photos etc.

I got into a fair amount of issues for challenging some of it.

I enjoy reading the anti-MLM blogs/websites, it’s really eye-opening.

A girl I knew used to do forever living and would post photographs on ‘order day’ with loads of huge boxed orders and packages. Despite this she quit after a few months. I’ve since read how distributors are encouraged to buy empty boxes and keep packaging in order to stage these pictures and make it look like they’re selling loads, when 99% of the image is just empty cardboard boxes and fake orders. These deceit knows no limits!

@Yoloyohol that's fucking horrifying to read! You go, woman. Keep challenging it. God. It's just. Wow

@ReeseWitherfork never before have I been thought of as the popular girl in school, rather the opposite. I have always been the deeply uncool one with the unpopular interests and bad clothes, a persona I’ve managed to hang on to right into my fifties! Much as I don’t want to shatter your illusion (delusion?!).

My eye has been off the MLM ball recently as I am a mental health worker and as you can imagine we are rushed off our feet. The DSA is similarly rushed off its feet with its director general, a woman who knows nothing about MLM, doing the media rounds and claiming that the DSA is a regulatory body for MLM. When this is questioned she says that they are self regulating, which is meaningless (the Kray twins were “self regulating”). They are also busy positioning the recognisable names such as Avon and BS, as trustworthy options where you can supplement your income by a minimum of £300 or so a month on a consistent basis. This is absolutely not true. The DG of the DSA is very careful to avoid talking about all their members, for example Forever Living or Valentus. The DG wants us all to refer to MLMs as “direct selling companies”, even Valentus with its “seven ways to earn” only one of which is selling (Mostly illegal) product.

When it comes to legislative change I think the confusion about what is really going on and what constitutes an illegal pyramid scheme gets in the way. The cause is often taken up by politicians and clearly concerns those who look in to it. There are lots of financial and other journalists who write about it and are troubled by it, yet it never really gets addressed legislatively. There was also the excellent Ellie Flynn/Jennifer Shaw docu on BBC last year (still on iplayer) which raised concerns beyond the usual critics of MLM. But to the outside world who haven’t looked closely it looks like a fun bit of selling, a supportive environment, where you can just play with the products or build a “Business”, ‘the sky is the limit if you’ve got the drive’. I also think that most of the victims are women and often women who are poor and/or without many options and this isn’t a group on anyone’s priority list sad to say. It’s further confused by the victims mutating into the perpetrators (if they don’t drop out) and selling the lies on. The people who are victims of it don’t want the juggernaut to stop because they think they’ve got a future in it. Of course, there are some people who have made a lot of money by recruiting huge downlines, and these are held up as proof it’s possible, which keeps those victims on message. Making a lot of money in MLM is of course possible, it just isn’t probable.

I’d like some changes. I’d like MLM to be prohibited but as I can’t have that I would at least like to see a mandatory income disclosure from each company trading in the U.K. that details not just the woeful numbers but makes clear that the numbers are before costs are removed and that the figures are for the active distributors and not the total number of people who signed up. The true numbers losing money is much higher when all the people dropping out within a year of signing up are included. I’d like the individuals at the top of the companies to be much more accountable for the practices of their company AND their distributors, and I’d like it to be much more difficult to set up a trading scheme that looks like a product retailer (I’m particularly looking at you TS Life). I’d also like a separate independent monitoring body not made up of MLM people, that monitors where the revenue is coming from and punishes certain practices (too large in number to list here).

Will anything happen? I’m not very optimistic though I do know there are some very smart and informed anti MLM people out there doing their very best to lobby for change.

Oh dear, I’ve droned on and probably made it very clear why I was never the cool one

@Yoloyohol that’s very concerning. You’re so right that the way of selling these schemes has become more sophisticated and less ‘get rich quick’ in tone. I think students have never been more of a target than they are now. Have you had any success contacting the universities themselves? It’s difficult to get a handle on just how rife MLM is in our further education establishments.

I am so fed up with my Facebook feed being full of MLM.

Body shop, fake perfume, Bath bombs, wax melts, Avon etc

It's never ending.

Disclaimer I do not work with any company, I'm an independent writer who has watched this business model for a long time for various work related reasons.

Yes most MLM are shit. There's a phrase in the beauty media of "Salt Lake Scams" - companies like Forever Living, Younique, Nu Skin etc being run by USA Mormon/right wing white old men that are deeply misogynistic and hugely dodgy. And the products are pretty shit. They are not taken seriously at all in the beauty press and get no mentions and probably never will.

One exception is, to my mind, Tropic. Uk. based and owned and run by a woman. I've met Susie Ma the founder at a couple of press things and she actually knows her stuff and is way more impressive than her younger days on the Apprentice. They have won genuine beauty awards for their products and are seen as a reasonable company by many in the beauty world, get good reviews and mentions, she's also very hot on ethics, fully certified vegan etc. She's also more transparent than most about why they use the direct selling method (their products are made fresh seems to be the main reason for not going into retail. Retail cycles are long and do need strong preservatives in products for shelf life so this holds some weight). They are doing exceptionally well as their products are actually much better than many of these companies.

She was also the only one to respond to an investigative article about them in a series about MLM. And talk through their Ambassador numbers etc. Can't remember who it was who did the article and the followup but it was interesting how much the interviewer changed her tone in the followup after Ma's response. Maybe Youokhun knows which one that was?

@LivingDeadGirlUK

Yeah I always get disappointed when I see people partnering with MLMs. The apparently ethical clothes brand Frugi were doing promotions with Usbourn books. My running club was promoting a Body Shop raffle (I'm sure the raffles are illegal), even my bloody kids nursery have said they use Avon skin so soft on the kids and recommend it as the best product (almost became THAT parent but decided to let it go as its true, it is a good product, but ffs there must be other eucalyptus based creams out there).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41124992

I'm being swamped with Body Shop reps wanting me to join their Facebook pages. One friend has even set up her 12yr old DD to be a rep, saying it's all about teacher her to be her own boss etc.

@YouokHun I'd really like to write to my MP about this, I've started drafting emails before but I end up waffling for pages because there is so much wrong with the schemes. Could you recommend some easy to link resources to back up some of the key facts such as the percentage that make money and the emphasis on recruiting?

@HariboLectar thanks for the link, I'll be sure to make a nuisance of myself if I see any more raffles promoted on my groups!

@Yogawithmydog I think you’re referring to this article www.talentedladiesclub.com/articles/how-much-can-you-earn-with-mlm-tropic-skincare/

I would agree with you that her willingness to speak to TLC is good news and very unusual. I think her relative openness was appreciated by lots of people. I also understand that the products are nice. Though there is a variety of prices available it is generally expensive and probably beyond the reach of many (as are a lot of cosmetics).

Susie Ma is no fool and I’m sure she knows her stuff but I am pretty sure that in selecting the Network Marketing/MLM model other factors aside from product freshness were on the list, not least the cost saving of not having employees.

From what I’ve seen of Tropic it seems to often be a bolt on to an individual’s main business: I’ve seen a lot of beauticians and the like selling it. This doesn’t indicate to me that it’s a viable stand alone business. The other thing I’ve noticed about Tropic sign ups is that they tend to be slightly better off people, perhaps because the products are expensive the people buying it and then becoming ambassadors start off in a better financial position? These people tend to have a social network of similar people who will be able to afford to buy expensive product, though no one needs product that often so you’d need a very big network to sell enough volume. Those people are also able to buy more product for themselves. It also means the Ambassadors will not necessarily be relying on it to make a living wage nor will their failure to make money from one month to the next be as catastrophic or as noticeable, as another non MLM income is likely enabling the Tropic endeavours.

Of course I realise that my small sample size of around 40 Tropic sellers provides only an anecdotal picture but I do think these factors obscure the viability of Tropic as a sensible and consistent way to earn a living wage. I wonder if there is any research on the social profile of particular MLMs and what effect that has on perception of them and on outcomes for sign ups.

@Yogawithmydog

I do understand that some products are actually good, but those reasons for going mlm is bollocks, they could have an online store and sell direct through that, or even through salons and therapists (of which I know many who peddle Tropic). They make more money from being an MLM though. I can't see success rates being any higher for Tropic than the others. So there are still only 1% of the sales reps making a living wage.

According to the website the starter kit is just shy of £200, that is the main product. Susie gets a guaranteed £200 for every sign up and then anything they sell after that is a bonus.

She is NOT an ethical person if she is happy to take £200 quid of however many thousands of people that sign up, knowing that only 1% will ever make a living wage.

She could have gone down the route of Avon of old, given people patches with no competition, maybe even, heaven forbid, employ people as sales reps! But that wouldn't make as much money as a pyramid scheme and she might have to take some responsibility for the people who are out there creating her income.

Nah I thought she was good on the apprentice but lost all respect for her (and Alan Sugar) over this. She is screwing women over the same as all the others.

Youokhun My experience is they aren't interested and when you try and change that, they then pay brief earnest lip service before getting on with the next thing.
If you then start pushing it, it turns out some of those involved are "esteemed students and colleagues", and it's legal, and gets called as sour grapes, rocking the boat etc.
I'd hoped that things would be followed up behind scenes, but it would seem not.

One particular ad came as apparently part of a student campaign newspaper, and showed a well presented middle aged woman wearing a silk wrap, fastened with a nice piece of jewelry, sitting on an attractive antique chair with a pile of books and a laptop, in a period room, which proceeded to blab on about having taken the wrong degree when young, and how they'd been trapped in a career they hated, but had now found freedom and where funding a whole new educational journey and taking it all the way. Initially i was looking for the 'vote for me to become x' which usually follows these things, but then realized the focus was on how they were paying for education.

Being constantly told that I couldn't just let Covid rob me off all my hard work and take away my ability to fund myself, I was all ears.
When I said I was concerned at the lack of tangibility and that it might be some kind of MLM, I pretty much got 'Look Yoloyohol, students a lot further on than you are successfully funding their studies, sometimes you might need to consider compromising a little, you know.'

When I identified the minor stately home that had been used. 'Entrepreneurial', was the response.

The hun bot ones are just seen as 'well young people spend silly money on make up and health fads all the time... It's part of growing up.'

TBH I find a willful refusal to hear what doesn't suit them , generally, so they may have a point about me. I also find the word 'marketing' is the holy grail both for the uni and the SU, and there's a lot of discomfort around criticizing any form of marketing currently.

Urgh I've just had a poke about the Tropic website and the DO have direct sales from the website. So yes just as bad as Bodyshop, Usburne and Avon, just using the MLM as an extra revenue stream with the sales reps as the customers.

@YouokHun my first real exposure to MLM was a few years back when a friend joined Younique. (I’ve grown up with Avon and went to a few body shop and Ann Summers parties over a decade ago.) I couldn’t work out how my inexperienced friend was suddenly “starting her own make up business” and making the sort of money she claimed to be. So I did some research and one of the first google hits was a mumsnet forum where you had explained how they worked to someone else. Everything made sense, and I understood it enough to research further. And of course I’ve become very familiar with your username over the last couple of years of regular mumsnet use. You are the authority when it comes to the subject. Maybe “popular girl” was a bad analogy. Perhaps I’ll call you the “David Attenborough of hunbots”.

I thought the DSA were the regulatory body for MLMs!

The changes you list sound necessary. And so important this year, especially with how women have been disproportionately affected (with their work/childcare balancing). I can imagine MLM is looking pretty good to the women who have been trying to juggle everything.

I like the tropic products and keep wondering if it's worth signing up just to get £500 worth of stuff for £200 then get the 25% off when I buy the products! Not sure I could work it like that but I just want the products a bit cheaper!

@YouokHun thank you yes, it was that Talented ladies club article I was meaning.

Very interesting point too about their social profile, again I would agree that the Ambassadors I know are mostly professional, higher income earners or yes involved in beauty/wellbeing/vegan/high end lifestyle areas which seems to be a good fit for Tropic's ethical stance.

@LivingDeadGirlUK I've just refreshed myself with that article and it's stats. It seems most aren't trying to make a full time wage from Tropic, it's definitely a "nice add on" type.

Tropic do sell directly on line. I know people who have signed up just to get the products and don’t have any hassle doing this. I like some of their products they are quite unusual.

It's awful, I saw someone claim that actilabs supply nutrition shakes to the NHS? That can't be true?
Also seen of of their members using covid to recruit and sell by claiming it offers more job security than an office job at the moment and asking people to donate money so they can buy their own expensive hand sanitizers to donate to the NHS when the local tesco has shelves full of reduced hand sanitizers.

[quote Yogawithmydog]@YouokHun thank you yes, it was that Talented ladies club article I was meaning.

Very interesting point too about their social profile, again I would agree that the Ambassadors I know are mostly professional, higher income earners or yes involved in beauty/wellbeing/vegan/high end lifestyle areas which seems to be a good fit for Tropic's ethical stance. [/quote]
Though I wasn’t letting Tropic off the hook with my comments on the type of person I see involved in Tropic @Yogawithmydog. I think the financially better off distributor allows Tropic to appear more viable than it really is, because it’s apparent success is usually attached to another non MLM income and it’s unusual for any distributor to clarify that their beautician business is what is paying for the holiday or the nice car was bought by a partner. Fine if someone is signing up to earn a bit of pin money or treating it as a hobby and they totally understand this but not OK if it’s giving the impression (a lie by commission or omission is still a lie) that as a product selling business it’s going to provide a consistent living wage. Despite what S Ma says it’s definitely being sold to potential sign ups as lucrative (from what I’ve seen). I have never seen a direct selling MLM that operates in the above board way the owners claim. So despite the ways in which it differs from, for example, Younique, it still has exploitative potential and it still pays to recruit a team under you. I’ve asked a fairly successful Tropic person today if there is benefit to recruiting and she’s said, “there’s no benefit to me recruiting but there is to me growing my business by sharing the opportunity” - make of that what you will!

One friend worked for a well known skincare MLM. She worked her backside off for two years. Her husband and I were chatting one time and he told me that she'd made, in those two years, a grand total of £80 profit. £80 for 2 years of hard work!?! The only people making money from these MLM's are the companies themselves.

@Ughmaybenot

Utility warehouse! Wtf is that?! Someone keeps posting on her insta story about it, and that seems even more fucking daft than most... surely you can just shop around yourself?

You have to buy all you utilities through them. So you get one bill.

Plus they try and recruit you to get new customers, and to recruit more sellers.

I kept getting the spiel from someone and thought they were genuinely trying to help me save money