To wonder when complying with the law became optional?

[AlexaShutUp]

I know lots of people disagree with the various covid restrictions, and I understand that position, but that isn't what this thread is about.

Rather, I'm really surprised by the number of people who say that they have no intention of complying with the law simply because they don't agree with it. They are not protesting against the restrictions, just ignoring them.

I always thought that people in the UK generally had respect for the rule of law, but it is as if people now think it's just a matter of personal choice/preference?

I know I shouldn't really be surprised. Our PM seems happy to break international law and his senior advisers freely ignore their own government guidance, so on one level, I don't blame people for thinking fuck it, I'll do what I want. But still, I'm surprised by the number of people who seem to regard obeying the law as optional.

AIBU to think that the law is still the law, whether we like it or not?

Do we need another thread on this subject? I think we all know by now what people's reasons are and that not everyone agrees.

The other question we need to ask is why is there no strategy? No clear plan?

Because we have had months. We all knew it was open up during the summer, lock down in part during as we moved into thr winter. There was plenty of time to say ok. We need to do x y and z. This is how we target, this is our plan, there is none of that.

And why anyone thought it was a good idea for witty and valance to stand up and present to thr nation a chart saying we were following France and Spain and rhey are doubling every seven days when it was clear even to a twelve year old with basic maths skills, that they are not, is bewildering.

It then comes across as scaremongering. Making it up to scare rhe public into doing as we are told. Before Boris rolls in and says ok now you saw the scarey shit here’s why we are closing pubs or whatever and you need to all stay home.

Except he’s now going to do it in a back drop of everyone shouting that’s bullshit that is. When actually if they had presented a reasonable case, and then said ok we will focus on care homes, the vulnerable, and reduce socialising people would likely have bought it.

People suggesting the Dominic Cummings fiasco is just used as an excuse and that one person breaking the rules doesn't make it ok for everyone... Well it wasn't just Cummings. The Govt and Boris stood behind him, defending him, refusing to answer questions properly and tried to gaslight the entire country. That's why people don't want to follow every nonsensical rule that comes from the same government. I can understand why, for example, a family might have decided to see each other after that rathe than strictly following the rules. Not quarantining is different as it's selfish to choose to go on holiday when you know things are constantly changing and then decide to ignore the quarantine rules. But seeing your family etc is so basic to human life that it's hard for people to not do that when the Govt are making such a disgraceful mess of everything. Anyone here saying the have always followed every rule to the law is a liar. Never drank under 18? Never accidentally breached a speed limit? The sheep mentality of "follow the rules" just because it's the rules is worrying. Not advocating people not generally following the law but when it's ridiculous, at least have the independence of thought to see why it might happen.

Who is going to police whether you quarantine when you come home from holiday (if on the list to do so) or if you are more then 6 in an indoor gathering? No one. It relies on people doing the right thing.

This isn't just covid related, its been like this for years.

People breaking laws when driving, cycling etc.

People using e-scooters on pavements yet its illegal.

People cycling on the pavement yet its illegal.

People parking illegally causing traffic jams

People chucking rubbish everywhere not taking it home

What's worse is when you see parents letting their children get away with it and then we wonder why we end up with adults who lack values, exhibit poor behaviours and break the law.

The thing is though, MP's break all sorts of laws, fiddling their expenses, minimising tax payments, etc etc. Yet post on here that you accidentally took an extra item from a shop and people are screaming at you that you're a thief and to take it back. Yet it's ok to break covid laws because MPs do. So I do see what you're saying OP. It's hypocritical.

There’s constant law breaking by cyclists and motorists and the police seem to do nothing about it.

Although I am following the Covid rules, I do think they are wrong. I go to work and come into contact with hundreds of people a day but I haven’t been able to see my family since February.

@PeetaSue

Do we need another thread on this subject? I think we all know by now what people's reasons are and that not everyone agrees.

100+ comments suggest people do want to still discuss. Unless you sit on Mumsnet 24x7 you don't always see previous discussions. Perhaps hide threads you don't want to see rather than knock it?

@Stripesgalore

There’s constant law breaking by cyclists and motorists and the police seem to do nothing about it.

Although I am following the Covid rules, I do think they are wrong. I go to work and come into contact with hundreds of people a day but I haven’t been able to see my family since February.

Police don't do anything about anything unless it's in response to a call/case number. They don't do "proactive" even when they can and aren't busy!

I've witnessed a police car (no blue lights) driving normally down a road, and completely ignore a group of thugs vandalising a bus shelter, including breaking the glass right in front of them - they literally couldn't have not seen it. They just carried on driving past.

Interesting question but I think you’re being a bit simplistic. The rule of law is generally accepted to be about more than individual laws. Instead, it imposes requirements that individual laws have to meet. So for instance, according to the rule of law, a particular law that is irrational, or discriminatory, or breaches certain requirements in terms of human rights, for instance suppressing free speech, is not properly a ‘law’ at all. In fact in some contexts the rule of law will require people to break ‘laws’.
I’m not saying that the ‘laws’ that people are breaking at the moment necessarily fall into that category, but I think we need to be aware that the rule of law is about more than just laws.
Another point is that law rests upon a necessary degree of consensus in society. For instance you get some perverts who break the law by sexually abusing children. But the vast majority of us agree that the laws criminalising this are a good thing. So there is consensus. When consensus really breaks down - when otherwise law abiding people start breaking laws - that is a sign that something has gone very wrong. A law which separates people from their families - as we are seeing now- will have problems securing the level of consensus that enables laws to function. Which is exactly why governments should be very wary of creating this sort of law.

People suggesting the Dominic Cummings fiasco is just used as an excuse and that one person breaking the rules doesn't make it ok for everyone... Well it wasn't just Cummings. The Govt and Boris stood behind him, defending him, refusing to answer questions properly and tried to gaslight the entire country

Yes this^^ the way the Govt defended him, he stubbornly refused to apologise, and Boris even says something like he (DC) risk assessed his own personal circumstances and it’s fine to do that! Don’t get me started on fucking Grousehunting. It’s one rule for them and one for use. That’s why the public is so disenchanted. IMO, with the DC fiasco, he threw away any remaining goodwill of the people.

Yes the government behaved appallingly over the Cummings thing and shouldn't have defended him. I still don't see why that means we should all do as we please and ignore Covid restrictions which are there for people's protection. It's not as if you breaking the rules is going to somehow stick it to Johnson or teach Cummings a lesson, is it?

lazylinguist I find how the govt behaved about DC pretty unforgivable tbh, and contemptuous of the public, someone else said gaslighting, and I agree and that’s why I have my beliefs.
Contrary to some comments on here I’m not a dick and I don’t Believe my opinion is childish either. I’m a natural rule follower and wear my mask, keeping 2m away from people but the moral vacuum the government is operating in over DC has disgusted me tbh.

When our leaders don’t follow the laws and restrictions, thinking they’re exempt or special or make excuses, it makes people think they too can make excuses to not obey them. Simples.
It also doesn’t help that the rules differ from country to country within the U.K. - creates a ‘why do we have to do this when they don’t?’
And it doesn’t help that the ‘rules’ are changing all the time, confusing and I. Some cases seem pointless. Me,DP and my 2 kids can’t visit our friends hse as they now have a baby= 7 people but I can go to a pub, indoors, and meet with 5 friends from 5 different households.

@Mellonsprite

lazylinguist I find how the govt behaved about DC pretty unforgivable tbh, and contemptuous of the public, someone else said gaslighting, and I agree and that’s why I have my beliefs. Contrary to some comments on here I’m not a dick and I don’t Believe my opinion is childish either. I’m a natural rule follower and wear my mask, keeping 2m away from people but the moral vacuum the government is operating in over DC has disgusted me tbh.

If you're referring to me, then since you are following the rules rather than using DC as an excuse not to, then you aren't in the group I called dicks. I was referring to those who had little intention of following them to start with and have seized in Castle Barnard as their excuse.

I am really dismayed about the gas lighting that has become the norm in government.

I have just spent a week on holiday in Bavaria in Germany. The contrast between there and the UK is immense.

No service in a shop if no face covering (staff all wear them too).
No service in a cafe or restaurant if you have no face covering, and it is removed once at a table (outdoor ones too).
A track and trace system even for cafes in rail stations.
Covid testing centres in accessible places, not some car park out in the wilds.
No-one of junior school age or above on a bus or train was without a face covering.

People willing to engage in normal activities such as shopping, visiting museums/art galleries, going to the park or lakeside. Trains reasonably well used.

Germany with a higher population, 1,711 cases yesterday, UK 3,598.

Oh good, more sanctimonious bullshit!

Mellonsprite - so we are in agreement then? That the government are arses and behaved wrongly over Cummings, but we should still follow the rules?

As many have said, when Dominic Cummings drove the length of the country with the virus we’re trying to contain, and then to Barnard’s Castle for an eye test.

I will still be following the laws, but this is why many aren’t.

@Ranunculi

I always obey the law, but in this case the law has gone too far. They will not stop me seeing my parents. It’s unacceptable.

This is absolutely true for me too. My parents are elderly and with mounting disabilities and health problems. I will not be told again that I cannot go to them. They almost didn't make it alive through the last lockdown as it was.

I am generally a law abiding person. However, I cannot support some of the batshit rules that are passing into law this year. Especially after Cummings-gate and Boris's dogged defence of him where he said we could use our own judgement and initiative.

I don't think Dominic Cummings even lasted a single night with the batshit lockdown rules that he was largely responsible for writing. If he doesn't need to respect them then I will think twice about it too, especially when my family need support.

I think they going too far now. I will see my Mum n won't make her sit outside. If I can meet 5 friends in a restaurant I can invite 5 friends over for dinner or drinks at my house. My kids can have friends over (not big gang but the 2-3 they see all the time. I'll have my bro n kids over. We all like be in low case area everyone sensible. If one of us got it I cud list everyone out n call them (would not be relying on track n trace) my mum lives alone and won't cocoon anymore she's being sensible n safe staying local with same few friends n family. (She not gonna only pick me or my bro to bubble with) I am normally most law abiding person but this just goes too far for me. (Am in Ireland but they trying to do similar)

People break the 'laws' because they are not actually laws,they are guidance.

lazylinguist
so we are in agreement then? That the government are arses and behaved wrongly over Cummings, but we should still follow the rules?

Mainly in agreement, If I really wanted to I would go into my mums garden or even house and may meet up in a cafe with her outside our home town. We’ll travel separately and wear masks etc. I also will not be snooping / reporting neighbours if I see them breaking rules as I think it’s a shitty thing to do. I’m in an area with more restrictions.

Crocciesnap I couldn't have worded it better myself.