To wonder when complying with the law became optional?

[AlexaShutUp]

I know lots of people disagree with the various covid restrictions, and I understand that position, but that isn't what this thread is about.

Rather, I'm really surprised by the number of people who say that they have no intention of complying with the law simply because they don't agree with it. They are not protesting against the restrictions, just ignoring them.

I always thought that people in the UK generally had respect for the rule of law, but it is as if people now think it's just a matter of personal choice/preference?

I know I shouldn't really be surprised. Our PM seems happy to break international law and his senior advisers freely ignore their own government guidance, so on one level, I don't blame people for thinking fuck it, I'll do what I want. But still, I'm surprised by the number of people who seem to regard obeying the law as optional.

AIBU to think that the law is still the law, whether we like it or not?

On a Teams call today a colleague said that she wouldn’t abide by any new restrictions as lockdown didn’t work. If I look at the graphs it seems that it did. Obviously it didn’t eradicate the virus, but it had a significant effect. The worst case scenario that we we’ve been given for the next month may not come to pass, but I’d rather not take a punt.

I am a total rule follower. I follow rules/laws because I believe thought and evidence have gone into making them as they are.

These laws are dreamt up by absolute buffons, off the cuff based on whim and who lobbies the loudest.

I now put in my own time and effort to research the evidence and do what it says makes the most impact. (I am actually qualified in this area. I'm not a [insert non related job] and just fancy a go at public health research.)

I have no respect for rules which so manipulatively misrepresent data for political purposes.

It's always optional - and I doubt there are many adults or drivers at least, that haven't broken the letter of the law. I mostly follow speed limits. I sometimes don't and that is one thing but there are other times when I accidentally go over the limit by a mile or two.

@HarryLimeFoxtrot Mon 21-Sep-20 23:05:41
I expect the law to have had parliamentary scrutiny, not just to have been imposed based on what social media suggests might be popular with whoever Dom is currently tracking. Plus the government communication is dire - so most of the time it isn’t actually clear what the law is meant to cover.

But you’re right. Laws only work if people consent to be bound by them. The current government have lost the trust of the public on Covid. And they don’t have any mechanism for actually policing them.

Both these points 100%. Plus, whilst some police delight in policing this, others are indifferent and others agree that the rules are stupid and unenforceable.

The laws are meant to be for the good of society. These 'roolz' are far from that. Even if they worked against Covid, they are still counter productive to society. As there is no evidence they work against Covid (hint Covid is a virus, it isn't interested in our 'roolz') they are illegal roolz.

I’m a naturally law abiding rule following person have followed all the COVID rules and will continue to do so.

But many of the rules don’t really make sense. And the government have shown they have no intention of following any inconvenient rules themselves either COVID related (Barnard castle debacle) or international law (Brexit Northern Ireland debacle).

It’s not much hardship to me personally to follow the rules. But I can understand if it was a choice between following the rules or paying my rent, I would feel differently.

@StillWeRise

speeding and recreational drugs are bad examples though speeding (I speak as someone who had to do the speed awareness course)- the chances of being caught may be low but the consequences to a pedestrian are much worse if hit by a car at 30 than at 20- so it's a law with a good purpose recreational drugs- may if you are lucky have little impact on you as an individual but the risk to some consumers is significant and more importantly the international trade causes immense harm

But they’re both crimes that only potentially have a victim. Thousands of people do both with absolutely no consequence every day. Contrast that with, say, burglary, GBH, fraud etc, where someone always suffers as a result.

Covid laws are very similar to speeding and drug taking. Thousands of people will break them with absolutely no consequence. The big problem is, those that break them and, as a result, infect others, will probably never actually know that they did.

People have always broken the law, thats why we have fines, community service, prisons. Why would you think this would be any different. People in power have also always broken the law, they just tend to get away with it more because they can weasel their way out, or throw money at the problem. This situation is no different. It surprises me that so many people are shocked by that.

Blindly following the law is immoral. Slavery was legal, as was marital rape. Now I'm not saying that going into a shop without a mask is akin to slavery, before the nutters pound on me. I'm emphasising the moral hazard of blindly following the law.

When the prime minister flouts international law there isn't much hope is there?

Meh, the law is always optional, it’s not like every time someone breaks the law they get caught and get in trouble. Very much depends on if you get caught, who you are, and who has caught you.

And tbh this government has made it very clear that it’s one rule for them and another for us, and I even though I myself am strict about covid regulations, I can see why a lot of people are just so sick of it all.

Some of these laws are being made without proper parliamentary scrutiny and are effectively diktats

This government has been explicit about saying that keeping within the law is optional. ( Cummings, limited &specific etc). So it's completely unsurprising that people are now saying they have no intention of staying within the law. Leadership matters. Which is unfortunate given who is currently in charge n

Complying with the law is always optional if you're prepared to face the consequences if you get caught, or consider the risk of getting caught worth the benefits of the law you want to break. It all boils down the morality of the individual and who they perceive to be the "victims" of the crime.

There was a thread on here yesterday I think, regarding the prevalence of certain drugs in various circles. I'd wager plenty of people on here either use or have used drugs recreationally at some point in the past, despite it being against the law. "But it's a victimless crime if I snort a line! I won't be accidentally killing a vulnerable person through my actions, its not comparable". Maybe, but for those drugs to get here, they have to be produced, shipped, smuggled and distributed once they get here. The entire chain leaves a wake of suffering because of the demand for it.

How about speeding? I've seen the threads, I know everyone here drives at strictly 5mph underneath the speed limit, yet I spend many hours a day on the UK road network and I can safely say that's not the case for the majority. The same goes for looking at phones, applying make up, etc. Laws that are routinely disregarded.

Did anyone here drink regularly before they turned 18? Maybe slip something in their bag from without paying?

People will choose whether to follow the new laws exactly as people choose to disregard the current laws. I'm not saying it's a good thing, not at all, it just is what it is.

To those I see with a daily regularity shocked at those breaking the new laws, would you feel so disgusted with your friend that has a line at the weekend? Or your DC having a few too many ciders and getting drunk at 15? If not, therein lies a little bit of a problem.

It's because the rules are so bloody arbitrary (and also not actually law I don't think - they haven't been passed by an act of parliament).

So, I can't arrange a playdate for DDs with friends in a park (if more than 6 of us in total) but if we all just happened to bump into each other there - absolutely fine! We can't be indoors with more than 6 people, but I'm being encouraged back to work in a building with hundreds. Has Covid got smart? - does it know not to spread in a workplace setting? Or to go proliferate instantly there are more than 7 people in a room? It's all madness.

Best advice? Be outdoors (rather than indoors) when you meet people, keep your distance from anyone outside your bubble, touch as few surfaces/people as humanly possible and sanitise/wash your hands religiously.

But for God's sake don't get the rage at people going for a walk in groups of 7. It will make sod all difference to the spread of the virus.

And the local rules/laws are often batshit and centuries old.

We have a law that prohibits us from shaking our mats or carpets unless it's before a certain time.

Love this one - it's illegal to be drunk on licensed premises.

It's illegal to jump a queue in a tube station ticket hall.

When the law became so nonsensical that even our leaders don't abide by them. Like this 10pm curfew shit. Because the virus knows what fucking time it is. Just don't get me started...

There's always been a certain amount of law breaking but I think there's a few things all coming together at the moment.
The media seem determined to undermine and sow dissent wherever they can. Their constant message to the public has been, not to inform, educate or reassure but to tell people they are confused and to point out any anomalies
I also think Brexit has left us weakened as so many people in positions of wealth or power refused to accept a democratic vote that it has weakened the faith of many ordinary people that rules and established procedures must always be observed
I do blame most of the recent increase on social media, it seems to have opened the gates to the cunt farms and now they are all out encouraging each other.
Ultimately I don't think the outlook is good

Complying with the law has always been optional. That is why governments employ law enforcement agencies.

Perhaps because the laws (whether you agree they are correct or not) are a huge infringement of civil liberties and individual freedoms? Asking people to sacrifice the things that make life worth living. Passed through emergency legislation by the cabinet without any parliamentary scrutiny, never mind the House of Lords. Plus the Dominic Cummings shit of course.

I agree that lots of people don't consistently follow the law. I think it's pretty unusual for the government to say it's optional to follow the law.

Dominic Cummings should have set a better example. But I don’t think him driving to Barnard Castle means that the other 68 million of us should not follow rules and take some social responsibility towards trying to get this under control. In fact I think it is really childish way of thinking.

I follow the rules because I'm hardwired that way but I don't blame people who don't tbh.

With regard to Cummings, the PM specifically said that it was acceptable to make your own assessment of risk, and the government said it’s natural to seek family support in times of crisis. That surely must apply to everyone?

Dominic Cummings is used mainly as an excuse by those who were likely to break the law anyway IMO.

If you understand why the rules are in place in the first place then you feel disgust with DC's behaviours. It doesn't make you think you can break them too because - unlike DC - you are not a selfish dick.

The people who use DC as an excuse are largely those who don't seem to have sufficient critical thinking skill to understand the repercussions for all of us if there isn't broad compliance.*

*I understand a minority may feel overwhelmed by it all and their lack of engagement is down to despair that anything will actually work, and it might all feel a bit pointless.

I follow the rules because that sort of behaviour is ingrained into me.

However, given that I've had strong views on thing like Brexit, Boris and Covid, and nothing I've wanted has come to pass (despite voting every time and signing all the petitions in the world), I can totally understand why some people are demoralised enough to just give up on the system.

Plus, if people like Dominic Cummings don't follow the law and there are no consequences for him - why should anyone else behave?

Boris has truly broken this country.

the chances of being caught may be low but the consequences to a pedestrian are much worse if hit by a car at 30 than at 20
That is fact, but you could argue that a brand new car will stop quicker than an old banger, sane as younger people having better reaction times, so it would be no different to a young person in a new car saying that the rules don't apply to them the same as an older person in a 20yo car.

I totally agree with you OP. I feel that many legal rules don't apply to be but follow them because they are the law and that's that.

Picking and choosing is just self centered and entitled but sadly that's what our society is turning into.