To wonder when complying with the law became optional?

[AlexaShutUp]

I know lots of people disagree with the various covid restrictions, and I understand that position, but that isn't what this thread is about.

Rather, I'm really surprised by the number of people who say that they have no intention of complying with the law simply because they don't agree with it. They are not protesting against the restrictions, just ignoring them.

I always thought that people in the UK generally had respect for the rule of law, but it is as if people now think it's just a matter of personal choice/preference?

I know I shouldn't really be surprised. Our PM seems happy to break international law and his senior advisers freely ignore their own government guidance, so on one level, I don't blame people for thinking fuck it, I'll do what I want. But still, I'm surprised by the number of people who seem to regard obeying the law as optional.

AIBU to think that the law is still the law, whether we like it or not?

Because some laws dont make sense. Pubs closing at 10pm because that's when covid is ready for the night?
Dominic Cummings fiasco did far too much damage. Boris wants to break law too.
I can see why people will.
Have they also employed thousands more police officers to enforce these laws? Most are stretched to the limit and tbh ide much prefer the police to be dealing with proper crimes rather than arresting granny because she makes 7 at sunday dinner.

@Twigaletta what are you doing to keep safe?
We have hand sanitasing units by all doors and in all rooms at work. No finger print system. We still have logging book (in case of fire) so I sanitise my hands before and after touching the area. We do keep appart as much as possible, and if we have to work less than 2 m, we use visors. All contractors leave their details and must be approved beforehand.
Outside of work, sanitise hands when entering a shop/ supermarket, and when returning to car. Now masks are mandatory here too. So sanitise hands before and after putting it on or off. In the gym, sanitise machine before and after use.
We do not see anyone indoors. We did visit a relative, so we had our bubble with him, but as cases raising here, we will not for a while.

Is there anything else to be done? Any tips?

Lots of people on here are conflating breaking the rules/guidance with breaking the law.

I will happily break the rules if I think they don’t make sense or if I am adding no extra risk by doing so. Breaking the law is next level - and needs much more thought about consequences (both of getting caught but also of why they are there in the first place).

Cummings didn’t break the law, he went against guidance.

Problem is everything has changed so much, is different in different parts of the country that people don’t know what’s law anymore.

Oh bless you op. Did you not wonder why we have a police force, prisons full to the brim and courts with a four year back log.

To wonder when complying with the law became optional?
During the Thatcher years when people started believing it was only a crime if you got caught.

It's not all law. Most of it is actually just guidelines. I believe the rule of 6 is law though.

I live by the 10 commandments, most everything else is negotiable.

I can't see why anyone needs to break the law at the moment. Is it really that much of an imposition to meet with up to 5 friends and not get too close? Or to wear masks when shopping or going on a bus?

I agree the confusion between guidance and law isn't helpful.

Pubs closing at 10pm because that's when covid is ready for the night it's not that, it's about restricting the time people have to get drunk. However, I'd have thought that table service and a 2 hour window would work better.

The rules should be easy to follow and uncomplicated:

Masks indoors except in private houses and school lessons and when eating/drinking; if you can't cope with a mask some other face covering is fine like a scarf
Groups fine outside up to about 10, just households inside homes (but see no 4)
Sport fine indoors and out but spectators need to keep 2m apart
Usual (child)care arrangements fine
Work from home if you can
Table service in pubs etc and no hanging around the bar or outside the door

Big fines for mass gatherings

Have I forgotten anything?

I'm the same IFMUSIC, the clipboard laws I make my own assessments because they are simply guidelines. People don't seem to know the difference between the two.

Shielding is the perfect example. We were advised to stay in, but clipboard morons decided this was the law and repeated the mantra we should stay at home full stop. Many people locked themselves inside for months when they could have least gone out for some air.

I refused to blindly obey locked up 24/7 because I had committed no crime.

Dominic Cummings rule of thumb.... he blatantly broke guidelines and should if been punished.

But does it make it right for everyone else to do so? No, but I understand why people do.

As well as the fact that people have seen leadership acting as if the law doesn't apply to them, it is quite badly written. Take the latest 'rule of 6'. What does 'mingle' mean? And you can be exempt if it is a 'rite' or 'ritual' for a milestone event according to your belief or 'lack of belief'. They are clear trying to account for people of all religions and none but come on, what is that wording? You could try and argue anything is covered by that....

And then there's the fact that none of these laws are getting parliamentary scrutiny because they signed it away so all these badly worded laws are being put out by a small group of people.

To all these people who think it's OK to break the law, what about if someone broke into your home or mugged you because they thought it was OK? Is that acceptable? Or are we now a society where we only follow laws that suit us?

These particular 'laws' have been brought in without any debate or oversight. It's hard to understand how they fit in with our human rights. Plus, the rules appear to change every 5 minutes and as yet, the scientific priniciples behind 'rule of 6' have not been explained. Add to that the Government's precedent on law breaking, so I feel entirely justified in ignoring the shambolic instructions issued on an ad hoc basis.

@canigooutyet

I'm the same IFMUSIC, the clipboard laws I make my own assessments because they are simply guidelines. People don't seem to know the difference between the two.

Shielding is the perfect example. We were advised to stay in, but clipboard morons decided this was the law and repeated the mantra we should stay at home full stop. Many people locked themselves inside for months when they could have least gone out for some air.

I refused to blindly obey locked up 24/7 because I had committed no crime.

Agree. But also the media got it wrong with their "essential" message for work and public transport. That fed through to the "clipboard gestapo" who worked from what the media had fed them rather than official guidance.

Well hopefully it’s always been something you considered, right? Anyone who has studied German history would recognise that following the law and your leaders blindly is a poor moral choice.

So I have always thought breaking the law is something to consider if you think it’s justified. So then the question becomes is it justified?

I obey laws for 2 reasons

1. Because I agree with them
2. Because I don't want the punishment/fine that would come with being caught

Just doing something because it's the law wouldn't come into it for me and I suppose many others. I think this is a good thing tbh. It's the first time we've had to have such sudden and tight restrictions on how people live their day to day lives so it doesn't surprise me at all that people are breaking them (that's not to say I necessarily agree with them).

YANBU. People love going on about Dominic Cummings, because he's their excuse for breaking the law. Since when was is ok to decide how to behave based on what an individual dodgy politician does?

I dislike the Tories as much as the next person. Oddly enough that doesn't make me think I ought to copy their behaviour. I do believe I should obey the laws of the land though, since they are generally there for my benefit and everyone else's, not just ignore the bits I don't like.

People will always break rules. Just start a thread about knowing someone who is committing benefit fraud and you'll have a whole heap of people making excuses for them.

No one really seems to give a crap about covid rules now and who can blame them? Ministers don't care, royalty don't care, we aren't exactly surrounded by people at the top level that are setting a good example. All of them are setting ridiculous rules that make no sense and aren't following them themselves.

The issue is no one knows what’s law, what’s a guideline, and really what’s in place at any given time. And plenty of people are pig sick of it. That’s what the basic issue is.

It’s not folks thinking I’ll break the law, it’s folks thinking what is the rule now, and basically fuck this I’m sick of it.

There are various elements to an effective application of the Rule of Law, for example:

1. The law needs to be clear and understandable by the public, and largely stabile: hasn’t been at times during Covid, it’s been mixed, nonsensical, changing all the time and often the law doesn’t exist until after the government have announced its in force.

1. The law needs to apply to all consistently (and the government as well as private actors are to be accountable under the law). On the face of it yes, but the reality is the Government have shown this not to be true, particularly with Dom’s trip to his castle and their full defence of what was a clear breach of the law.

Once the basics of a properly functioning system don’t apply, people won’t follow the law if they don’t agree with it.

Worth noting that another element of rule of law is that justice is accessible (in a timely way, delivered by competent, ethical, and independent representatives who are accessible and have adequate resources). The government at the moment are busy ripping the soul out of our justice system - trials are three years away, they are extending permitted time on remand, closing courts etc. So the issue of compliance with laws is only going to get worse as respect through the rule of law is further destroyed.

For some reason (power and control I assume) this government are intentionally trying to destroy our legal system.

But the laws around coronovirus are ridiculous (due to being rushed with little oversight) - unlike the laws around burglary which are long-standing and tested.

If you and your friends always went out as a large group for Mexican for 40ths and it is your 40th next Thursday, I bet you'll be able to find a lawyer willing to take the test case that it is a Ritual for milestone events according to your lack of belief...

Because some laws dont make sense
They do make sense to those who pass them through the process of making them legal. These people are much more likely to have the knowledge and expertise to decide if it make sense then people who don't even have an A level in the related field.

It's amazing how people always think they know best than experts just because the law takes away some of their freedom.

I'm law abiding and have been complicit throughout lockdown. But I am really struggling with why it is ok to sit 2 m away from lots of strangers inside a bar or restaurant, but I can't see one of my adult children in my garden (I'm in a restricted area). I get it's because of the idiots that were having mass gatherings but when you know you are safer with one adult child , in your garden than multiple strangers in a bar, it is tempting to adopt common sense rather than follow the law.
And I agree, Cummings has a lot to answer for and BJ even more for refusing to fire him.

Since it muddled, contradictory and entirely optional to the people who made the laws