Pride and Prejudice

[Blackdog19]

Just watching the awesome Colin Firth P&P adaptation. When I first watched it as a teenager, I thought Mrs Bennett was the annoying ridiculous one. It took reading something for me to realise that Mr Bennett was as bad in his own way saving no money and leaving Mrs Bennett with the possibility of 5 unmarried daughters and no home. If I had read the book in Jane Austen’s do you think we’d have more initial sympathy with Mrs Bennett?

I think it LOOKS less bad for the father as he is the one from the higher social level so his "sins" are those of omission. He fails to be more than amused by his wayward teens and makes no attempts to "improve" or correct any perceived misbehaviours.

He's a lazy arse.

Not sure I agree that Mr B's higher status makes him less culpable. JA often parodies the very wealthy as out of touch, lazy and selfish. she herself was from a pretty modest background, I think, and had brothers in the navy etc - might be why capt wentworth is such a paragon. Hard working, decent, upper middle class types is what she approves of most in my judgment.

I think it looks less bad for Mr Bennet because Mrs Bennet is sooooooooo annoying that you feel sorry for him stuck with her without thinking of them both objectively. Also in the BBC one I think he seems like a nicer person. Donald Sutherland portrays him quite well I think- couldn't be arsed as opposed to above it all.

@FinallyHere

Mr B isn't even father enough to step in and force that Wickham marriage, salvaging Lydia's last scraps of reputation although tying her to a predator and a philanderer for life - it's Darcy who sorts that out.

While I appreciate that Mr B is a weak character, I think this is a too personal interpretation. JA is signposting the issues in society: Mr B laments that he has no money with which to bribe Wickham.

There is no other pressure that would work with Wickham and Mr B is also confronted by his debt to his brother-in-law who Mr B thinks has produced the money required.

Fortunately, Darcy has plenty and a backstory so is prepared to step in this time as he d d not when he sister was caught by Wickham.

I've probably used quite strong terms, but narratively JA is building to a reveal that Darcy is actually wonderful, and a crucial part of that is that he is willing to take responsibility for Lizzie's family. It's not just a heroic wooing technique, it's the correct course of action: your wife is part of a larger unit of potential dependents and your protection should extend to them if need be. Austen is showing that Darcy really loves Lizzie and is prepared to be an excellent husband to her.

Obviously he's the one with the insight and links to Wickham, but that's because it's a very competently structured novel. I don't think Austen's having Darcy do it because it's more practically convenient for him to do so, she's doing it to reveal his worth to us, the reader. If Mr Bennet was the one to go, it would turn it into a novel about a man who pulls his finger out when his kids really need him, and it definitely isn't that.

@SisyphusAndTheRockOfUntidiness - the easiest way to describe an entail is as a form of trust. Mr Bennet effectively has the use of the Longbourne estate and its income for his life. On his death it doesn't form part of his estate but reverts back to the trust which says that the next beneficiary is the closest relative to him "in tail male" - ie passes to the nearest male relative from male descent. So if Mr B had a legitimate son Longbourne would pass to them for life but as he doesn't it would pass to his next nearest male relative which is Mr Collins. If my understanding is correct Mr Collins is the great grandson of Mr Bennet's grandfather so in order to trace the heir to the entail they need to go back 2 generations to Mr B's grandfather's younger brother (dead) and then to his son - the one Mr Bennet didn't get on with (also dead) - and so on to his son Mr Collins.

Much as I enjoy watching the BBC P&P Mr Collins is probably too old in that adaptation and the film closer to the truth as he is probably much of an age with Jane having not long been ordained and in his first church position which does help a bit to understand his gaucheness and sycophancy.

I loved Alison Steadman as Mrs B but yes she was overdone. However I think that it was necessary to exaggerate her to indicate how she didn't behave within the then accepted social norms. Andrew Davies even explained that he had to add lines to explain eg Mr Collins forcing himself to Mr Darcy's notice at the Netherfield ball and that Lydia's elopement would "contaminate" the other girls.

Oh I think he's far worse.

It's his superior laziness puts his more insecure wife into overdrive.

Imo!

Much as I enjoy watching the BBC P&P Mr Collins is probably too old in that adaptation and the film closer to the truth as he is probably much of an age with Jane having not long been ordained and in his first church position which does help a bit to understand his gaucheness and sycophancy.

He's 25, it's mentioned in the book. Darcy is 28. Elizabeth is 20.

Ok so I'm watching the bbc one after the 2005 movie last night. The Bennets in the BBC seem much posher than the movie. More servants and white table clothes etc. does anyone know which is more accurate?

@Sweetmotherofallthatisholyabov

Ok so I'm watching the bbc one after the 2005 movie last night. The Bennets in the BBC seem much posher than the movie. More servants and white table clothes etc. does anyone know which is more accurate?

TBH I think it's probably a matter of taste. In the 90s period dramas were a bit more shiny and upper class - the 2005 really embraces the idea of stinky, grubby history. I quite liked that everything wasn't manicured and the girls had messy hair (which tbh I doubt they really would have, despite Lizzie's muddy walk across country to see Jane), but it took it further than 'reality'.

I've thought about this a lot regarding the newest version of Little Women, which isn't really authentic to the period but is authentic to the spirit of ours, it's the Little Women we want to see right now. I don't think there's necessarily one right answer.

JA was essentially a member of the gentry, and wrote about that social class, but there's a huge spectrum of wealth within that. The Bennets have a tiny income compared to Darcy, for example, just as Jane Austen's father had a much smaller income than his son Edward, who was adopted into a wealthier branch of the family as a child. These people all considered themselves on a similar social level, but the way they actually lived might have been quite different. Women did tend to be actively involved in the running of their home, though, and I'm sure most would have been familiar with dirt and mess although it's up to the individual adaptation and director how interesting that side of things is.

We think of the regency era as quite stiff and formal because that's how lots of period dramas show it, but of course emotional intimacy, easy conversation and passionate connections were possible, and life was as messy/funny/dirty/sexy in its own way as ours is today.

@Sweetmotherofallthatisholyabov

Ok so I'm watching the bbc one after the 2005 movie last night. The Bennets in the BBC seem much posher than the movie. More servants and white table clothes etc. does anyone know which is more accurate?

The BBC one is more historically accurate, but the film better expresses the difference in wealth & standing between Darcy, Lady Catherine & co. and the Bennets, Gardiners etc.

The Bennetts are also supposed to live better than their income would suggest though, aren't they? Austen makes a point of saying Mr B saves nothing and there's discussion of how none of them cook. I think that's contrasted to the Lucases? So while the 95 adaptation maybe doesn't bring out the differences in the same way, for my money the 00s one overdoes it slightly.

Mrs Bennet has her head screwed on and is fully aware that when her older husband dies, her dowryless daughters will have a miserable and precarious existence as governesses or ladies' maids/ companions, Kitty and Lydia might even sink as low as milliners (barely respectable and only a step away from prostitution) and Mrs Bennet herself faces old age in much reduced circumstances and dependent on the Gardiners' good will. So it is pretty damn important to find a husband, especially if you don't even have a brother. Think of Jane and Cassandra Austen and the life they led after their father's death, and Jane's miserable, painful death in lodgings. It's almost a century too soon for teaching/clerical jobs and any chance of independence. Charlotte is very wise to marry Mr Collins. And Mr Bennet is fully aware of his responsibilities; he does take the first step in calling upon Mr Bingley.

It's true that the Bennets live more extravagantly than their neighbours, but the Lucases are not supposed to be quite as well off as the Bennets anyway. There's a bit right at the beginning which introduces the Bennets as the first family of the neighbourhood. So either the Lucases, the Longs etc. or they all live further apart than the setting implies (Lucas Lodge at least is within easy walking distance of the Bennets).

Mrs. Bennet is desperate to get her daughters married, yet she doesn't do anything to help their situation, apart from throwing them in the path of rich men. It is made clear in the book that the only reason they are not in debt is because Mr Bennet keeps a close eye on the finances, the implication is that they would be penniless if Mrs. Bennet had her way, and therefore even less likely to marry well. Mr Bennet isn't much of a father, but unlike his wife he isn't willing to sell his daughters to the highest bidder, so while neither of them cover themselves in glory, on balance i think he is the better parent of the two.

Whilst I'd rather have a chat with Mr B, he's by far the most to blame. By his description and dialogue he is an educated, intelligent man, and (relatively) wealthy - he's had all the advantages - and so would, if he cared to, fully understand the situation his daughters are in. Yet he does nothing.

Mrs B is much younger, sillier and appears to have had little education, and yet she at least tries to do her duty, if in a totally counterproductive and wrong-headed way.

@BrightYellowDaffodil

There is a reference in the book which boils down to Mr Bennett having married the now-Mrs Bennett for her charms and vivaciousness, only to find that the charms wore thin pretty quickly and he was left with a silly wife for whom he had no respect.

Mr Bennett didn’t cover himself in glory due to his failure to save (if I remember correctly, in the assumption that a son would arrive at some point to “rescue” them from the entail), his favouritism and his rather erratic parenting (his failure to heed Lizzy’s warning about Lydia’s behaviour and its potential effect - knowing full well what shame being brought onto the family would mean for the rest of the unmarried daughters - followed by his sudden fit of severity to Kitty).

But Mrs Bennett was silly and gauche, as well as completely insensible of anything other than a daughter married - she didn’t care about the shoddy origins of Lydia’s marriage, or Wickham’s behaviour as long as she had a daughter wed. Not to mention her crassness of talking loudly about Jane’s impending engagement “throwing the girls into the paths of other rich men”, or trying her damnest to chuck Lizzy under the bus that was the ghastly Mr Collins. Yes, she knew the only way for the girls to make their way in life was marriage but she went about it all the wrong way.

I’m sure they didn’t have patios then but if I’d ended up married to Mrs Bennett I’d have invented one as a hiding place for the body

This. One needs to remember the rules of inheritance in those days . I.e. women inherited nothing . Mr Bennett knew this. His wife was a spendthrift and he confided in Lizzie in such matters . He could barely afford his wife's or his daughters' wanton ways.

The risks the girls face are real, and can be gleaned from Austen's other books:

• The best Jane and Elizabeth could really have hoped for was a clergyman with some personal wealth or expectations, and so Mr Collins was a repugnant, but reasonable match, when you consider that survival and respectability, rather than happiness, were the aims. I seem to recall a Lucy Worsley documentary about how romantic marriage was invented by Austen and other writers of her time.

• Plain old Mary might be lucky to catch a poor clergyman, or a trainee lawyer working under her Uncle Philips. More likely she'd have ended up as a governess or a companion to an unpleasant richer relative, or moving around relatives with her mother. More or a Miss Bates character.

• Kitty and Lydia were lucky not to become prostitutes. Once Lydia had spent a night with Wickham, unhappy but respectable(ish) marriage to Wickham was the only 'happy' outcome. If Darcy had not forced Wickham to marry her, she would have been abandoned, probably pregnant, and would have been in an even worse position (never married) than Maria Bertram, who ended up banished to a cottage and excluded from society for having an affair in MP, or Eliza in S&S who was dying in a debtors prison after being abandoned by her husband. Lydia would probably have been passed to a fellow officer at first, as a mistress, then sunk lower, to a street prostitute. There was no truly happy outcome possible for Lydia.

• Mrs B would become like Mrs Bates in Emma, living in massively reduced circumstances, possibly with some money donated by relatives, or moving from relative's house to relative's house until she outstayed her welcome, like Jane Austen herself had to.

@TheMarzipanDildo

I never got the impression that Mr B despises Mrs B, he just seems to find her “nerves” funny/ annoying and enjoys winding her up. Of course, we know that within the context of the era her anxiety is perfectly justified, but he’s a bloke so what’s it to him?

Well, surely a normally attentive parent of either sex would be at least mildly concerned that, after his death, his unmarried daughters and widow will become homeless and have to live in comparative poverty in a few rented rooms?

In a way Austen lets Mr Bennett off the hook by making Mr Collins quite so ridiculous — if he were even vaguely acceptable and Lizzie less of a favourite, surely Mr Bennett might have been tempted to foster a match to keep Longbourn in the family, and know that his widow and other daughters wouldn’t be living on Mrs B’s tiny dividends?

As Austen herself did, accepting with reservations a proposal from the awkward but respectable and monied brother of friends of hers, probably mostly for the sake of having a permanent home, and being able to give a home to her widowed mother and sister. (She changed her mind that night, and quickly left the scene...)

Love this thread. I will always have a soft spot for the 90s version and Darcy... I also find it fascinating that JA was part of this world as a single woman and though she wrote 'happy' endings this was very much not the case for her in her own life (she could have been her own perfect heroine, a decent girl from a 'good' family who fall on hard times, possible marriage stopped because of her poverty). I like the idea that JA wrote the populist books she could at the time to get published but is actually trying to say over and over 'THIS WORLD IS TOTALLY SHIT FOR WOMEN PEOPLE!'...I'd love to see a P&P retelling through a darker, bleaker, more cynical lens...

Love this thread. IIRC Mr Bennet & Colonel Brandon both have £2000 a year. Yet Brandon is given out as being a rich man & the Bennets are poor. Possibly because they’ve never saved.

The Bennets are not poor, they have a a very good income. The problem is that good their income disappears on their father's death.

No wonder Mr B is super chilled out and can point fun at his wife, this is not going to be his problem at all! Poor Mrs B, I'd be freaking out too. Just imagine the 'Don't worry dear we could just have another baby and it could be a boy '.
If Mrs B stuck her situation was on here he'd definitely be a LTB (or don't LTB as you'll be destitute but he's a massive knob and YANBU!)

I found Mrs Bennet the worst of the two. Mr Bennet obviously has a small sum of money where he can only live on its income and expenses were such that he couldn’t really save up the large dowries expected by society. He and Mrs Bennet had 5 daughters in an age before contraception. Also before women could work as there is no son around to go into law or medicine to help with the bills.

Mrs Bennet seemed to be the one doing the excess spending and just expecting Mr Bennet to magic up money everytime she decides they “must” have new bonnets or dresses for a ball or to go to London to be presented to court etc.

Elizabeth is happy to point out that she is a gentleman's daughter.

Mrs B is giving them the lifestyle that her husband's position demands. I may think they'd all be better off staying home saving money but Mrs B would think that short term, defeatist behaviour!

Yeah, aside from Lydia being too young for it, she's actually doing what makes sense in getting the older ones out and seen in company while they're still young and have enough money for nice clothes etc. Speculate to accumulate. She's just pretty crass about it. But there's no doubt that with the long term aim being marrying them off, she was being perfectly sensible in socialising a lot with the officers. And of course Mr Bingley and Mr Darcy. Those opportunities were potentially time limited too, since the regiment could be moved at any time and Mr B was only renting. So the problem is more the execution than the actions themselves.

It's also, I think, overlooked that to some degree, her tactics worked. She was trying to get Mr Collins to want to marry one of them, and he did. She basically did her bit there.