Pride and Prejudice

[Blackdog19]

Just watching the awesome Colin Firth P&P adaptation. When I first watched it as a teenager, I thought Mrs Bennett was the annoying ridiculous one. It took reading something for me to realise that Mr Bennett was as bad in his own way saving no money and leaving Mrs Bennett with the possibility of 5 unmarried daughters and no home. If I had read the book in Jane Austen’s do you think we’d have more initial sympathy with Mrs Bennett?

I really enjoyed 'Longbourne' by Jo Baker - it's 'Pride and Prejudice' written from the point of view of the servants. It puts Mr Bennet in a whole new light...

There is a reference in the book which boils down to Mr Bennett having married the now-Mrs Bennett for her charms and vivaciousness, only to find that the charms wore thin pretty quickly and he was left with a silly wife for whom he had no respect.

Mr Bennett didn’t cover himself in glory due to his failure to save (if I remember correctly, in the assumption that a son would arrive at some point to “rescue” them from the entail), his favouritism and his rather erratic parenting (his failure to heed Lizzy’s warning about Lydia’s behaviour and its potential effect - knowing full well what shame being brought onto the family would mean for the rest of the unmarried daughters - followed by his sudden fit of severity to Kitty).

But Mrs Bennett was silly and gauche, as well as completely insensible of anything other than a daughter married - she didn’t care about the shoddy origins of Lydia’s marriage, or Wickham’s behaviour as long as she had a daughter wed. Not to mention her crassness of talking loudly about Jane’s impending engagement “throwing the girls into the paths of other rich men”, or trying her damnest to chuck Lizzy under the bus that was the ghastly Mr Collins. Yes, she knew the only way for the girls to make their way in life was marriage but she went about it all the wrong way.

I’m sure they didn’t have patios then but if I’d ended up married to Mrs Bennett I’d have invented one as a hiding place for the body

@TeenPlusTwenties Sorry, blame the autocorrect!

There is a thread throughout all Austen novels that shows how shit yet necessary marriage was for women. It's particularly clear where children are also involved. Her happiest married couples are the childless ones (admiral and Mrs Croft, mr and Mrs gardiner)

Even her heroines are often set up for unhappy marriages. Catherine Morland is 18 and still naive when she marries Henry. He's spent most of the novel teasing her.

Edmund marries Fanny on the rebound, basically Mary didn't want him so he settles for her.

Marianne marries a man much much older than her who seems to want to atone for his earlier mistakes. She is 19 I think.

Emma had basically been groomed by Mr Knightly her whole life.

It's only Anne Elliot that I think does ok with her marriage, and that was only because she was older and had had the time to develop herself and understand why Lady Russell urged some caution.

Mrs Bennet HAS to be awful, as does Mr Bennet.

If they were good people then Darcy's reservations about Elizabeth make him an unforgivable snob.

As it is, you can see his point.

I think Brenda Blethyn's portrayal of Mrs Bennet is way off. I don't recognise the character from the book at all. Alison Steadman nails it. To the point that my husband leaves the room when she's on. That's how awful Mrs Bennet is, and that's how much Mr Darcy loves Elizabeth.

@RelaisBlu

Yes CodenameVillanelle Wickham was the son of old Mr Darcy's steward, which is a senior servant, though it is not mentioned if his wife was a servant also?

Mr Wickham Snr was a lawyer who gave up his practice to work as Darcy Snr's steward. As such they would have been of a class that his wife wouldn't work. A steward would not be considered a servant. He's the same social class as Mr Philips, Lizzie's uncle.

@CodenameVillanelle - fair enough. I don't know if there's a proper term for it, would that be called "postponing the entail"?

I read a critique/essay on P&P /Austen's works several years ago, which made me thoroughly rethink how I saw many of her characters. I'd previously seen Elizabeth as the heroine, & Darcy as a man "reformed" by falling for her, Mrs Bennet as the silly mother, & Mr Bennet as the occasionally incompetent but essentially benign father. How naive. Austen was really quite a biting social satirist, for her time.

Mrs Bennett suffers from anxiety brought on by having a lazy husband and no money of her own. All she can do is try to ensure her daughters marry well.

@Twizbe

There is a thread throughout all Austen novels that shows how shit yet necessary marriage was for women. It's particularly clear where children are also involved. Her happiest married couples are the childless ones (admiral and Mrs Croft, mr and Mrs gardiner)

Even her heroines are often set up for unhappy marriages. Catherine Morland is 18 and still naive when she marries Henry. He's spent most of the novel teasing her.

Edmund marries Fanny on the rebound, basically Mary didn't want him so he settles for her.

Marianne marries a man much much older than her who seems to want to atone for his earlier mistakes. She is 19 I think.

Emma had basically been groomed by Mr Knightly her whole life.

It's only Anne Elliot that I think does ok with her marriage, and that was only because she was older and had had the time to develop herself and understand why Lady Russell urged some caution.

I don't disagree with the general analysis, but it's not universally true, I think Austen was much more nuanced than that. She's alive to women's limited choice but it's not wholly negative. The Gardiners, for example, are a loving and lovely couple, and they're not childless - they have four children.

By the way, if you haven't seen it, the Bollywood version, Bride And Prejudice is absolutely spot on perfect Bride and prejudice Mr Collins is even creepier than the Pride and Prejudice one, and that's some achievement.

I love the Andrew Davies adaptation, but I think Mr Collins is more believable in the movie. He is portrayed as being very young, which makes his insecurity and pomposity believable (and slightly touching).

As for Mrs Bennet, when you look at the circumstances she’s living in and the prospects for her daughters if they don’t marry, her hysterical approach to marrying them off is understandable.

@fink you're right. I got my couples mixed up.

There is an interesting book I read about this ... wish I could remember the name. It comes out in some of her letters as well. Particularly this idea that a marriage without children is the better option.

I don't know where this idea comes from that Mrs Bennet married in her mid teens and that would have been considered normal. It wouldn't. Wickham's repeated attentions towards girls of fifteen and fourteen is meant to be distasteful, in the same way as Willoughby's seduction of Brandon's young "ward" was in S&S (and maybe of Marianne, who is only 16 when they meet, poor, impressionable, her father dead and her brother uninterested in extending any protection to her family - she is easy pickings). These men are predators specifically targeting very young, vulnerable girls who are societally expected to be 'silly' and lack the mental/emotional/practical tools to keep themselves safe.

It speaks to the generally slapdash, foolish, undisciplined state of the Bennets and their parenting that Lydia is allowed to attend functions even though she isn't 'out': she counts as a child, is too young to understand what she is engaging in, and yet her parents are unable or unwilling to control her behaviour. We know that Mrs B was young and giddy when she married but we don't know how young precisely, I would think given that it was imprudent rather than scandalous she would have been more like 17+. Mr B complains about his poor match on that front, and yet he seems to take no steps to prevent history repeating itself - and anyway, a dissatisfied marriage is really the 'best case scenario', when someone like Wickham clearly intends to get what he wants from girls like Lydia and Georgiana and then discard them. Mr B isn't even father enough to step in and force that Wickham marriage, salvaging Lydia's last scraps of reputation although tying her to a predator and a philanderer for life - it's Darcy who sorts that out.

A more normal age to marry in that circle (age at marriage varies wildly across the classes) would have been late teens to mid twenties, the ages of Jane (22) and Lizzie (20). They are the characters who are getting serious about finding a suitor: Mary and Kitty, whose ages fall somewhere around 17-19, are being made visible, but there's no further expectation than that. And Lydia, as covered, should not even be out as a child of 15 at the start of the book.

Mr B isn't even father enough to step in and force that Wickham marriage, salvaging Lydia's last scraps of reputation although tying her to a predator and a philanderer for life - it's Darcy who sorts that out.

While I appreciate that Mr B is a weak character, I think this is a too personal interpretation. JA is signposting the issues in society: Mr B laments that he has no money with which to bribe Wickham.

There is no other pressure that would work with Wickham and Mr B is also confronted by his debt to his brother-in-law who Mr B thinks has produced the money required.

Fortunately, Darcy has plenty and a backstory so is prepared to step in this time as he d d not when he sister was caught by Wickham.

@Knittedfairies

I really enjoyed 'Longbourne' by Jo Baker - it's 'Pride and Prejudice' written from the point of view of the servants. It puts Mr Bennet in a whole new light...

Sorry but I loathed Longbourne. It shouldn't be seen as anything other than (admittedly well written) JA fanfic. It was written 200 years after P&P and doesn't explain P&P's character's motivation any better than anyone on this thread can, for example. Same goes for The Wide Sargasso Sea.

As a teenage I loved Mr Bennet in the TV version, but the book is much more critical of his failure to save (also Mrs B needs to accept responsibility there too) and general disengagement.
I think it's just a marriage that turns sour when they realise they don't have much in common. And divorce isn't an option. There must have been millions likely that.
I read a thing saying Mrs Bennet is modern and progressive and looking after the interests of her daughters. Well, I would argue that her failure is to look after then within the confines of the society she lives in. You can't live in a fantasy world. Also Lydia is married to a man who will most likely make her miserable and Mrs Bennet seems to have no understanding of that. Although do any of them. Poor Lydia. Wickham will cheat on her and spend all their money.

I think Mrs B has to be a caricature in an adaptation for a broad audience. She’s so very appalling that when Darcy says “frankly it’s astonishing that a man like me would be prepared to marry you even though it means saddling myself with that ghastly woman as a MIL” (I paraphrase), both the audience and Lizzy think “yeah he does have a point”.

I can’t really sympathise with Mrs B. It’s only luck that prevents her behaviour from landing Lydia in a London brothel like Eliza in S&S and Jane dead of pneumonia. And Mr B just stands by and let’s her do it.

I think what we are meant to feel is that there are two ways in which things can go seriously wrong for young ladies in this period:

a) either not getting married at all= destitution

b) getting married or compromised by somebody who will not provide for you/may abandon you= destitution

Mrs Bennet is desperately trying to avoid the former but in doing so is steering her daughters towards the latter: encouraging them to get into dubious situations with officers who may well not be reliable. If it were not for Mr Darcy (whom nobody could have foreseen), Lydia might well have ended up with an illegitimate child and no income- that is worse even than being an impoverished spinster.

In short, both parents are failing them- Mr Darcy isn't wrong there.

Agree the Andrew Davies adaptation is the absolute best!

My interpretation is different though. Like many parents, Mrs Bennet wants the best for her children and will go all out to make it happen - even if she gets it a bit wrong sometimes or makes herself look ridiculous. Like many parents, Mr Bennet trusts in fate and in his children and mainly believes it will all turn out alright in the end (which it does). (The one exception is Lydia, and I believe he expresses huge regret about what happened, blaming himself for letting her go when she was too young and vulnerable.) The interesting question is which of these parenting styles do you lean towards? (A mixture, but I’m probably more like Mrs B.)

Mrs Bennet does embarrass Lizzie, but then we all get embarrassed by our families when we are teenagers (which I believe she is in the book?). She is pretty bloody livid though when Darcy criticises her mother! #goLizzie

Am I the only person who prefers Mr Bennet. He knows he's made a mistake but as he said he "intended to father a son"

It's pretty clear Mrs Bennet has either some MH issues

Yes, and also Lady Bertram who possibly had an underactive thyroid or something that deprived her of energy.

There were jobs for impoverished gentry - lady ‘companions’ and governesses - but marriage was seen as a better option. I wonder when the saying ‘marry in haste and repent at leisure’ originated.

I prefer Mr Bennet in terms of sitting down for a coffee with, But he is truly as irresponsible as Mrs Bennet. He lets Lydia go for a quiet life and doesn't get involved in the Colin's courtship at all. What I can't understand is having met Lizzie how her mother thought she'd be able to foist Mr Collins on her. She'd have been better steering him towards Kitty or Mary. Mr Colin's would have been salvation for the Bennets after Mr Bennets death and he really doesn't seem to care.

Mrs Bennet was perhaps more guilty than her husband for leaving their daughters without adequate dowries, as she liked to spend money for clothes and entertainment, and it is mentioned in the book that "Mrs. Bennet had no turn for economy, and her husband’s love of independence had alone prevented their exceeding their income".

@Toddlerteaplease - I think a lot of people do prefer Mr B to Mrs B, but as a man he should & would have been expected to be stronger & more capable. He would have had a great deal more power financially, in society & in the marriage. The fact that he's chosen to make poor use of it is a reflection of his character - I don't want to say weak, that's not quite the right word, but he clearly just doesn't think ahead. Not about planning for his daughters' futures, not about the possible consequences of Lydia's jaunt to Brighton - even after Lizzie specifically warns him - not even about choosing a suitable wife. He merely thought about choosing a pretty bride who suited his fancy at the time; it's plainly evident that they have little in common & do not get on. Mrs B has never been up to the challenge of educating her daughters, she is weak-minded, fanciful & often ill, but she would not have been the only woman to be unable to do so; he could have engaged a governess or sent them to school, & again, he didn't.

I actually think that measured by the standards of the day, Mr B falls just as far short of what was expected of him, if not further, than his wife. Married women were expected to obey their husbands, & above all else, to be virtuous. A moderately well educated, rational woman was preferable, but it was expected that women would be silly or ignorant, & they were often not educated beyond languages, needlework, music, dancing & art. I can't remember any mention of the Bennet girls having any desirable accomplishments at all, except Mary playing the piano, & Lizzie enjoying reading. They all sew, more or less, but I don't imagine they would have money to engage dressmakers, so this would have been essential.

Yes, they were both held up to ridicule.