Pride and Prejudice

[Blackdog19]

Just watching the awesome Colin Firth P&P adaptation. When I first watched it as a teenager, I thought Mrs Bennett was the annoying ridiculous one. It took reading something for me to realise that Mr Bennett was as bad in his own way saving no money and leaving Mrs Bennett with the possibility of 5 unmarried daughters and no home. If I had read the book in Jane Austen’s do you think we’d have more initial sympathy with Mrs Bennett?

I felt that Alison Steadman's over-the-top performance spoiled what was otherwise a note-perfect adaptation.

I'm not sure. She was pretty near to the tune of Austen's own over-the-top bordering on camp presentation of that character. Same goes for Bingley's sister Louisa Hurst. I don't see her as the worst by any means because despite its acclaim that adaptation was marred by some pretty terrible acting. The guy who played Wickham was dire, Bingley wasn't much better, and some of the smaller parts (Maria, Denny, Col. Forster, Mr Gardener, Mr. Hurst) were dreadful.

I quite liked Mary, Lydia, Caroline and the two aunts, but for me the absolute stand-outs were Mr Collins and Lady Catherine: both brilliantly played. I have to say I think in that role Barbara Leigh Hunt knocks Judi Dench into a cocked hat. I'd have loved to see Diana Rigg play that role - never saw her put a foot wrong in her career and by her own admission she was brilliant at playing monsters!

Back on the topic of the thread, they were both awful parents but Mrs Bennet although annoying did at least care what happened to her children. Mr B. didn't give a twopenny fuck. Terrible father!

@Plesky

I think he's embarrassed chiefly because the girls have no dowries, though, and that his daughters are, financially-speaking, poor matches for the kind of men they might expect to marry in purely social terms.

There's a kind of lightly-touched in (and admittedly joky) self-satisfaction in the scene near the end where Bingley and Darcy have proposed, and where he says if anyone comes to ask for his permission to marry Mary or Kitty, he'll be in his library and quite at leisure to see them. It's as though it restores him slightly to something of his sense of the way things should have been, had there been a Bennet son and hence money to make the girls better prospects on the marriage market, and him a proper paterfamilias of eligible daughters.

Yes definitely. He's someone who grew up with money, a gentleman, the heir to an estate etc, who has relatively recently been brought back down to earth with a bump and hasn't accepted that. He's embarrassed at the reality that actually his daughters are going to have to be paraded out and have their pretty faces hawked, because that was never the way it was meant to be and not what he signed up for. Whereas Mrs B doesn't have that same sense of shame.

I also wonder if there's an element of him feeling that's essentially what happened to him, ie having a pretty face paraded to him by parents who were on the make, and that he doesn't like it for that reason. Reading into it, she married above herself. Mrs B is supposed to be beautiful, she's not gentry and clearly it wasn't her wits or their compatible personalities that did it. You'd have to imagine her parents did whatever they could to facilitate the match, and I think it's interesting that in the servant spin off the author says that's what happened.

Re Alison Steadman, I think that version gets the embarrassing nature of the character dead on, but doesn't display the inherent rationality of her position. Mr B is basically shown as a droll wit, and the irresponsibility isn't there.

Mr Collins was really suiting himself in choosing one of the Bennet girls. He has heard them described as handsome (iirc), he knows they are of good social status, and because of the entail, he is pretty sure of a favourable outcome.

Mr Collins was a relatively good catch. He was guaranteed to inherit Longbourn and the income. As Charlotte Lucas showed there were women who would be keen to marry him. Yes, he wanted a pretty wife but he was also probably acting out of familial duty too.

'because of the entail, he is sure of a favourable outcome.' Agreed. Mr Collins went to Longbourn 'prepared to admire' the Bennet daughters; notably he decided it was appropriate to visit them only once all the daughters were of marriageable age. So he expected to have his pick of the girls as he thought they would each be desperate for the chance to marry him and thereby secure a comfortable situation and get the family out of a hole.

So, a huge ego trip for Mr Collins.

When Lizzy refuses him it hurts his pride & I think he proposed to Charlotte Lucas just to spite her (Lizzy) - hence his gloating over her during her later visit, to show her what she has missed out on.

TBH I think Collins' proposal is just a caricature of Darcy's. There are so many parallels; both of them think they are doing Lizzy a massive favour in proposing to her, both are angry and mortified when she refuses them...although Darcy, in contrast to Collins, is able to rise above his initial response to ensure he is worthy of her.

I totally get why Mr Collins assumed he'd be accepted as well. He obviously doesn't know they think he's a tit, and if you take that out of it, him marrying one of them was a no total no brainer. Absolutely everyone involved would benefit. Possibly the more interesting question is whether he would've looked elsewhere if they didn't have such a reputation for looks!

In terms of timing, doesn't the book say his dad had died fairly recently and he didn't think it was a good idea to get involved before then because of the falling out with Mr B?

He obviously doesn't know they think he's a tit

Proper tickled me, that.

Livingtothefull i agree and of course the biggest contrast between Mr Collins and Darcy's proposal is that Darcy actually has feelings for Elizabeth, while Mr Collins just wants a suitable (and pretty) wife.

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

Re Alison Steadman, I think that version gets the embarrassing nature of the character dead on, but doesn't display the inherent rationality of her position. Mr B is basically shown as a droll wit, and the irresponsibility isn't there.

Agree -- and Benjamin Whitrow played him naturalistically and appealingly as kind and funny, so we're predisposed to agree with his pov, while Alison Steadman's screamy over-the-top thing, while it nails Mrs B's manner, means we are less inclined to think she's the parent with her economic head screwed on of the two of them, even if she's going about her project the wrong way,

Her character would have come across very differently had Andrew Davies gone off-piste and included a scene where we see a momentarily steely Mrs Bennet saying in private to Mr Bennet, 'Look, the girls only have a couple of seasons to find a husband while they're young and pretty, and should you die before that, I won't be able to afford to send them to the assembly balls or dress them well on my pittance, and they have no other chance for any kind of financial security, so can we get real here, please?' Or Regency equivalent.

I've always assumed that the scene in Titanic where Rose's mother talks about women's limited economic opportunities (and how Rose needs to stay engaged to the Nasty But Rich Villainous Fiancé or the whole family will be ruined) is the screenwriters' deeply clunky version of Mrs Bennet's motivation, only of course it makes much, much less sense in the early 20thc.

In P&P Mr Collins says that since his father passed away he had 'frequently wanted to heal the breach but was held back by my own doubts' but he had decided to make things up since securing Lady Catherine's patronage' (the better to impress the Bennet daughters with). So it is clear that some time has elapsed.

He invites himself to Longhorn in expectation of being able to take his pick of 5 marriageable daughters any of whom would/should be pathetically grateful to marry him. Probably wanted to check out the estate too.

I'm not sure Mr Collins is that caught up on looks, after all he ends up marrying Charlotte who is several times described as plain. He's treading the quite narrow line of following Lady Catherine's advice in choosing someone both genteel and useful about the house - i.e. well bred but not too well bred. He probably can't afford to also be picky about looks. I'm sure he wouldn't mind a pretty wife, but it's much lower down the list of attributes than obeying Lady Catherine's condescension. I think Elizabeth's right that he did well to get Charlotte, probably the only sensible woman who would have him.

That's right Deadringer, the similarities between the proposals of Collins and Darcy further serve to highlight the contrasts between them. These show that Darcy is manifestly the superior man and worthy husband for Elizabeth.

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

I totally get why Mr Collins assumed he'd be accepted as well. He obviously doesn't know they think he's a tit, and if you take that out of it, him marrying one of them was a no total no brainer. Absolutely everyone involved would benefit. Possibly the more interesting question is whether he would've looked elsewhere if they didn't have such a reputation for looks!

In terms of timing, doesn't the book say his dad had died fairly recently and he didn't think it was a good idea to get involved before then because of the falling out with Mr B?

He'd have looked elsewhere if Lady Catherine had given him more specific instruction, rather than 'Get married at once, to someone sufficiently genteel, but also active and useful'.

And yes, his father died recently, so he chooses now to offer the olive branch of a proposed visit to scope out the Bennet girls like a pick and mix (and he's entirely upfront about this in his letter). It mirrors the 'young olive branch' letter (which mentions Charlotte's pregnancy) at the end of the novel, when he decides to reconcile with the Bennets after the Lydia falling out. And which has made generations of female readers say 'Ew'.

Also, it's not clear that in one of them marrying Mr Collins, the whole family would be saved. Once you get to know Mr Collins's personality it seems likely, but for Mrs Bennet to pin her hopes on it is unreasonable. There would be nothing to stop Mr Collins refusing to house Mrs Bennet and the other daughters once he has possession of the estate. That's effectively what happens in Sense & Sensibility.

He's kind of on the rebound with Charlotte though, isn't he? Doesn't want to lose face by going home still unbetrothed. I think he could have done much better in terms of looks had he been willing to wait: he's fairly eligible really.

Charlotte is imho another one where the 1995 portrayal has been really influential but departs somewhat from the text, in this case because the actress who plays her is really pretty! Just watching the adaptation you wouldn't get that she's meant to be plain.

I think Alison Steadman played the part just as JA would have intended, dramatic OTT and to evoke laughter from her audience. The 1995 version is so well loved because it’s casting is amazing (maybe charlotte is too pretty and Jane too boring) but the rest is perfect, when I read the book I see those characters.

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer

He's kind of on the rebound with Charlotte though, isn't he? Doesn't want to lose face by going home still unbetrothed. I think he could have done much better in terms of looks had he been willing to wait: he's fairly eligible really.

Charlotte is imho another one where the 1995 portrayal has been really influential but departs somewhat from the text, in this case because the actress who plays her is really pretty! Just watching the adaptation you wouldn't get that she's meant to be plain.

But what does plain mean? To me that means normal, not pretty and yet not ugly. Don't most of us fall into the plain category? Just normal? Personality and wit wise Charlotte Lucas is way above Mr Colin's sphere, it is him who has marries well.

@Brieminewine

I think Alison Steadman played the part just as JA would have intended, dramatic OTT and to evoke laughter from her audience. The 1995 version is so well loved because it’s casting is amazing (maybe charlotte is too pretty and Jane too boring) but the rest is perfect, when I read the book I see those characters.

I am clearly alone in the world in finding Colin Firth's Darcy not wildly appealing (particularly when wet or emotionally-engaged) and kind of constipated-looking? Though better than Bingley in that adaptation, who was all 'goofy schoolboy getting to sit with the grownups'.

Why do we think Darcy, who is a crashing snob, hung out so much with new-money Bingley, anyway?

I don't think Darcey really is a snob though? He has an elevated sense of his own worth which isn't quite the same thing - he doesn't turn his nose up at Mr Gardiner for example because although he's in business (a "Cit") he and his wife are well mannered and intelligent.

after all he ends up marrying Charlotte

Charlotte catches just when Lizzie has punctured his ego. She (Charlotte) spots the (only) opportunity fate has offered her and soothes Mr Collin's bruised ego.

I think that at the start of the novel he is a snob though. The first time we see him is at a social gathering when his disdain for everyone apart from his own party is apparent. He is 'above his company and above being pleased'; he is downright rude hence Elizabeth's dislike of him.

By the time he meets the Gardiners it is after his proposal to Elizabeth, and by then he has begun to change and take her criticism of him on board. She is astonished at how polite he is to the Gardiners. It shows what a transformation he has undergone since the start of the novel; had he encountered the Gardiners then it would have been a different story altogether.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I found Mrs Bennet the worst of the two. Mr Bennet obviously has a small sum of money where he can only live on its income and expenses were such that he couldn’t really save up the large dowries expected by society. He and Mrs Bennet had 5 daughters in an age before contraception. Also before women could work as there is no son around to go into law or medicine to help with the bills.

Mrs Bennet seemed to be the one doing the excess spending and just expecting Mr Bennet to magic up money everytime she decides they “must” have new bonnets or dresses for a ball or to go to London to be presented to court etc.

But Mr Bennet himself says he made no provision for the future because he expected to have a son, so I don't think it's that he couldn't save up, but rather that he was complacent.

But what does plain mean? To me that means normal, not pretty and yet not ugly. Don't most of us fall into the plain category?

Probably, but the actress in the 95 adaptation didn't!

@Fink

Also, it's not clear that in one of them marrying Mr Collins, the whole family would be saved. Once you get to know Mr Collins's personality it seems likely, but for Mrs Bennet to pin her hopes on it is unreasonable. There would be nothing to stop Mr Collins refusing to house Mrs Bennet and the other daughters once he has possession of the estate. That's effectively what happens in Sense & Sensibility.

But doesn't Mr Collins himself says he wants to make it up to the the Bennets by marrying a dd because of the entailment? Therefore he expects to support the whole family (at least that's what he says, it might have been very different after marriage and Mr Bennet's demise).