To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

One of my classes this year has a refugee, a child who knows 2 words of English, a previously excluded child and one with severe learning difficulties. That’s diversity.

@Caitlin555. The acronyms:
Kings College School
St Paul's School and SPGS (girls)
Lady Eleanor Holles
Wimbledon High School
Putney High School

No, they aren't grammar schools. The local grammar is Tiffin and many who attend the above would pass the Tiffin exam. Which, regrettably I don't believe achieves quite such high results at A'Level.

Closest comparator state schools are church: Brompton Oratory, Sacred Heart, Grey Coat, Lady Margaret. The children of Blair, Gove, Cameron have attended them. Their overall results are not as good.

If you think diversity only equals money in the bank yes.
Real actual diversity surely covers everything?

It's far broader than your making out.
There is more pressure on pupils to behave or behave to dealt with.. No one is insulated from tragedy, violence, abuse etc.
Traumatic home lives.. Look at pw and pH.

I worked in a very deprived school in a very deprived area for years. It was tough but the rewards huge. I now work mainly in a private school. It is equally as tough but in very different ways. Parental expectation is huge and causes all sorts of problems. I get paid less. Facilities are no better than local state school. I love the kids who are fab, well read, well informed and who work incredibly hard. We get good results largely because they are bright and their parents stand over them to make sure they get their money’s worth. We don’t enter kids for exams we k ow they’ll fail.

In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school*

Teachers in private schools have the same qualifications. The state sector is full on unqualified staff nowadays. My school will not employ someone without a PGCE as a minimum - that is written policy that is published for parents.

I tell you what is depressing, is teaching in an affluent area of a city, with lovely, able, eager and bright children, and then going and teaching in a class in a shitty rundown school where the children are several inches smaller than the lovely, happy, healthy middle class kids were, and have poor co-ordination, and are unwashed and malnourished. And have so little confidence in themselves, and just so much less of everything.

It's so fucking unfair.

I'm sorry, I know this isnt anything to do with your post, but it's what it made me think of. YANBU. It's nothing to do with the teaching.

So we're moving on from thrashing people about Covid and back to private school bashing.
It's true you don't have to have qualified teacher status to teach in an independent school but it's rare to find one without them these days and where they do exist they are generally well supported and have a wealth of very relevant expertise
Sometimes the teachers are happier that's all. In some independent schools they get more freedom to teach.
It's a tragedy there isn't more ability to choose the school that best fits your child and your family but don't knock it for those who do

Having a PhD makes you expert in a terribly small field. Certainly smaller than a school subject curriculum.

Private schools get better results as

• often you have to pass an entrance exam meaning that everyone at the school is of a higher academic standard to start with
• parents will often pay for a ‘brainy’ child to go private whereas if child is not academic then they go to state (this was my family - I went to private as got a scholarship and my sister didn’t )
• a lot of people who can afford private are in well paid job which often need a certain level of intelligence, this is passed on to the children
• parent who can afford private often are more likely to push thier children, make them do homework etc
• people who go to private are often richer, can afford all the extra curricular activities, go on holidays to amazing place where you learn about the world etc
• can afford tutors in Subjects the child isn’t doing so well in
• private schools have smaller classes
• private schools cherry pick the children. I remember after GCSEs my school telling someone they would be better off at the local college rather than staying for 6th form, therefore getting rid of the ones who wouldn’t excel at A-level and bringing the average down.

BUT
Eating disorders are more rife and there is more pressure to excel. Drug use can be more common at private as everyone can afford to buy the drugs, sometimes there isn’t the newer subjects on offer.

SerenDippitty

The academic bar doesn't appear to be high for at least four of the boys in our village who attended recently either: they emerged with a range of grades varying from D to B with I think two As between them. Two work for their father, two had to join the army given the lack of other socially acceptable alternatives, ahead of running part of their grandparent's estate. The bar just isn't high.

@Antibles

Old school - STATE - one black family - we had moved from a very cosmopolitan city and I was shocked...

It's ridiculous in a country that is 87% white that you would be shocked. If a class of 30 pupils were statistically representative of the UK population, you do realise that there would only be 1 or 2 black pupils in it? Only about 4 in 30 non-white?

Only if the class was made up of a demographically representative sample of the whole UK population. You do realise that schools educate children and that the UK population of children is significantly more ethnically diverse than the general population?

Where did you learn statistics?

State schools do have plenty of ‘nice’ kids too who could be at private school if their parents decided that that was the only way they’d get a good education.

Indeed. And by the inflated price of houses around certain state school catchments it can be seen that the proportion of "nice" kids is very important indeed. Which those picking that school then contribute to in a positive (and I do mean positive) feedback loop, and the proportion of disruptive kids stays low enough to be an acceptable option.

@greengreengrass14

Hey. Not sure why anyone including OP is assuming behaviour is 'better' at a private school. Why should anyone make this assumption? By all accouts behaviour is worse.

And certainly the rates of 'absent parent's are way higher than state schools.

I highly doubt that private schools see half as much chair throwing as the middle of the road comprehensive school I went to did.

Private schools are all different. DS went to one and I think the biggest difference was that Maths was taught by mathematicians, languages were taught by those fluent in the languages etc. The teachers were mainly expert in their subject matter and imparted their enthusiasm to the boys.

They were not always people with the greatest teaching skills (although some were absolutely amazing) but this wasn’t needed as it was an academically selective school where being fabulous at maths had as high status as being great at sport and boys wanted and were able to learn easily. The teachers fitted the needs of the school and the boys (generally) enjoyed learning.

Some of the teachers, but not all, would have struggled to teach a mixed ability group, or control the classroom in the state sector. Many had the enthusiasm and charisma to hold any class in their hands.

The whole purpose of the entrance exam is to exude an air of academia while screening out those who might bring the grade average down. Children with SEN, typically.

It also makes people feel like they have earned their school place. That they are special and clever.

It doesn't require ultra high intelligence. Can't really as statistically there wouldn't be enough ultra intelligent children with wealthy parents to go round.

Ok ethically diverse

By far most parents are very comfortably off or one is ... (and other not quite living the same standard) a few in ds school in this situation

A few families with only children are not comfortably off because they have made the choice to send their child to private school (again minority)

chair throwing?

Oh, yes of course Missur/Madam

we are in need of an 'education' Missur, that is why we don't understand chair throwing kind sir, madam

[quote OhTheRoses]@Caitlin555. The acronyms:
Kings College School
St Paul's School and SPGS (girls)
Lady Eleanor Holles
Wimbledon High School
Putney High School

No, they aren't grammar schools. The local grammar is Tiffin and many who attend the above would pass the Tiffin exam. Which, regrettably I don't believe achieves quite such high results at A'Level.

Closest comparator state schools are church: Brompton Oratory, Sacred Heart, Grey Coat, Lady Margaret. The children of Blair, Gove, Cameron have attended them. Their overall results are not as good.[/quote]
I’ve always thought inner city London is a different kettle of fish schools wise than your standard market town where the local comprehensive is fine but the private school is seen as a bit better. I think more parents feel they have to go private in London due to the amount of social issues reportedly in comprehensives. I don’t think you’d find the same in more rural places. Not sure if I’ve articulated that very well.

Better than hiving everybody with a PhD off in a university or in industry (where they'd probably be better paid!) though.

Being taught by somebody who loves their subject so much they chose to spend three or four years studying to add to the field of knowledge of the subject is surely a good thing. I would bet a class taught by somebody who'd written their thesis on the roles of younger sisters in Jane Austen novels (for example) would benefit from the teacher's knowledge and enthusiasm when they studied any regency book or play.

The "better teachers" line is unfair on state school teachers too tbh. I had a great maths teacher who engaged the whole class. Even the disruptive "naughty" pupils learnt a lot from him. He went above and beyond to help us. Then we had our science teacher, incredibly smart with all the qualifications to go with it but boring as hell, flat voice, could not relate to the students and everything was very rigid. Pupils behaved for him because they knew he was strict, didn't mean they learnt anything.

The first teacher would do extremely well wherever he went, the second one, well if ever I cant sleep I just think back to double science on a friday and Zzzzzz

Haven't read the whole thread as was distracted by the no "chavs" at private school comment. Money doesn't buy class you know.

I briefly worked at an independent school. The head of a core department was a former state school colleague who couldn't manage a class and was never offered a permanent post.

The best teachers are clever IME. But not all clever teachers are good teachers.

I’ve always thought inner city London is a different kettle of fish schools wise than your standard market town where the local comprehensive is fine but the private school is seen as a bit better. I think more parents feel they have to go private in London due to the amount of social issues reportedly in comprehensives. I don’t think you’d find the same in more rural places. Not sure if I’ve articulated that very well.

Interestingly, the state schools in my town are very, very good. However the private boys’ school was a better fit for my DS. We were lucky to have such a choice.

I can see that for primary level but at secondary you have specialist teachers in the state sector.
Not across the board, there is a nationwide shortage of physics teachers so often chemists, biologists, or mathematicians have to teach the subject.

I honestly do not see my kids' state secondary school represented here. Languages are taught by native speakers, except one teacher who is English but speaks 5 languages fluently. Science is taught by scientists. Maths, well by maths teachers who have degrees in maths. My DS2's current English teacher is a published author, and the Media teacher is a retired journalist with years of experience. The only subject that is spread out to non specialist teachers is PSCHE, and I don't mind that as it gives the kids a wider input from different perspectives. It's not only private schools that has specialist teachers.