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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

School dinners

71 replies

FrenchtoEnglish · 18/09/2020 13:59

I suppose this is a bit of a moan really.

DD just started school. We're in France. We're vegetarian. The school has said I can either bring her home for lunch (2 hours) or I can provide a meal which they will heat up.

The problem is, they want the meals I bring in to match what the others are having. So today, I took in Greek salad for starter, then vegetable tajine with lentil meatballs and a chocolate mousse. They were having Greek salad, chicken tajine and chocolate mousse. It was a great big faff.

I work from home, so although I love having her with me, it kind of messes up my day and I'm behind on my work and having to do it in the evening when she's in bed. I'm a single mum and so we need my income. I'm exhausted. I've been bringing her home every day so far, today was the first time she tried out the cantine. I just don't know if I can be doing with that every day.

This just seems like a big faff. When I was at school in UK (30 years ago) veggie meals were provided.

This just seems like a big pain in the arse and I'm a bit cross about it.

She's only three. There are 6 children in her class. Eighty in the whole school. I worry that she won't be "in" with them or find friends if I bring her home for lunch. She'll be like the little English weirdo whose mum picks her up in the middle of the day.

WWYD?

OP posts:
LouiseTrees · 18/09/2020 14:28

Couldn’t they just keep some of the salad aside before any feta goes in, same with tangine, just keep out the meat and just give her the chocolate mousse as is? If this is a genuine post you need to speak to the school about this. Bringing her home isn’t fair once she gets a bit older as it singles her out but I would not be cooking/sourcing matching food every day either.

ZeroFuchsGiven · 18/09/2020 14:30

Why can't she just take a sandwich?

justanotherneighinparadise · 18/09/2020 14:33

I know the french make a huge deal out of lunch at school and whilst I think that’s wonderful are you saying they have no options for vegetarians?! I find that so surprising.

Cocomarine · 18/09/2020 14:37

Just tell them you’ll try to match the school menu, when it’s possible from vegetarian point of view. Smile, lie through your teeth.

Then don’t bother.

Sure, if it’s easy - like a chocolate mousse.
Otherwise, don’t bother.

Anything “Greek”? Stick an olive in it.

I think they’re just trying to avoid a situation where your daughter is having something that looks nicer and the other kids are overly interested. So match what you can (ish) but mostly smile, nod, provide whatever you like.

BarbaraofSeville · 18/09/2020 14:39

@ZeroFuchsGiven

Why can't she just take a sandwich?
The DD would definitely the 'little English weirdo' if she took a sandwich to school for lunch in France. Smile

Surprised that they don't cater for vegetarians though. I know it's less of a thing in France but you would have thought that they get a reasonable minority of vegetarians and people who don't eat certain meats for religious reasons that they would be able to provide a vegetarian option, on request at least, even if it was a bit half arsed

Cocomarine · 18/09/2020 14:39

Also - is their menu done on rotation?
If they regularly have chicken tagine, then make up and freeze some mini veggie tagines. If it’s a rotation menu with plenty of notice, it will be easy enough to come up with simple “equivalents” that can be prepared in advance.

mrsm43s · 18/09/2020 14:58

Why is your 3 year old a vegetarian? Is it a medical issue, or are you just imposing your own beliefs on her?

If the second, I'd let her eat the school meal, meat and all, and let her make up her own mind when she is old enough to do so, if she wishes to become vegetarian. By being left out of lunch time and shared food experiences (and presumably lunch time playtime), she is sacrificing an awful lot for your beliefs, and it doesn't seem fair.

If its medical reasons, can you not talk to the school, because I would imagine they would need to accommodate a genuine medical reason. Presumably they accommodate children with allergies etc.

ivfbeenbusy · 18/09/2020 15:05

It's not "we're vegetarian" YOU are vegetarian and YOU have chosen that diet for your child.
I'd just be bringing her home for the lunch break. You will be spending hours making special meals which match the school ones anyway so use that time to catch up on the work you miss by having her home at lunch

Cocomarine · 18/09/2020 15:05

Don’t be silly @mrsm43s
I eat meat, so I’ve no skin in the game - and I “imposed” that on my 3yo.

Eating together is a shared experience. Having veggie curry next to someone having chicken curry - or even a sandwich - is not the fundamental part of the experience.

2bazookas · 18/09/2020 15:14

? Just tell them to feed her the same menu as the other kids eat , minus the meat.

Bear in mind that lots of people don't realise what vegetarians eat. You might have to spell it out, Eggs, cheese, dairy, nuts, grains, legumes, fruits, oils, all fine. AND vegetables.

BarbaraofSeville · 18/09/2020 15:51

That's kind of hard baz when typical meals are chicken tagine. It's part of the dish, and it goes in at the start, so it can't be picked out. They'd have to do a completely separate vegetarian version.

Perhaps the school should be batch cooking and freezing, so they can feed the DD and any other vegetarians, alongside the meat eaters?

Bear in mind that lots of people don't realise what vegetarians eat. You might have to spell it out, Eggs, cheese, dairy, nuts, grains, legumes, fruits, oils, all fine. AND vegetables

You're not serious? Do you feel people need to be told where bears go to the toilet too?

kissmysass · 18/09/2020 16:41

In Baz' defence there's been no end of times for me when people assume as a veggie you must still eat fish, or they top something with a load of parmesan which isn't suitable for vegetarians. Same goes with lots of other cheeses.. pecorino, manchego, greyer, gorgonzola etc.

FrenchtoEnglish · 18/09/2020 17:17

@mrsm43s @ivfbeenbusy Yes, I impose my beliefs on my DD. I imagine most people do? It would be hard not to. I have all sorts of whacky notions I intend on passing on to her. I don't want her to steal, lie, bully. I don't want her to believe in God. I want her to share. I want her to help others. I want her to read. I don't want her to watch too much TV. I don't want her to follow traditional gender roles. I want her to have passions. I want her to have an open mind. I want her to be empathetic. I want her to be a socialist. All sorts of nutty stuff. You wouldn't believe the shit that goes on in this house. I'm surprised she hasn't been taken off me.

I imagine you feed your children meat. They have no choice in that. Have I got that right? You impose that on them. So, logically, your children, should they choose to be vegetarian in the future, will be more angry with you for having forced them to eat animals than the other way around?

OP posts:
FrenchtoEnglish · 18/09/2020 17:23

To everyone else, thank you for your tips. I think there will be dome sort of pattern in the menus and I'll get the hang of it. I think it is important that she plays with her new friends.
The cantine is run by the council. It's nothing to do with the school. On every other level, I feel very lucky. It's a bilingual French-Breton school. It's very well funded. It's all amazing. I'm just surprised by the vegetarian thing. France is strictly secular. They won't make allowances for religious choices either. I suppose it is what it is.

OP posts:
letsghostdance · 18/09/2020 17:26

Well said @FrenchtoEnglish. It's amazing when people critique "imposing your ideals on your children"... Yes, literally the whole point of raising children? Also, you're morally on the right side here by being vegetarian. So yeah, crack on.

FrenchtoEnglish · 18/09/2020 17:29

And why wouldn't this be a genuine post? What would I have to gain by moaning about French school dinners? If I wanted attention, I could make something up about sleeping with the hot, married headmaster. That would be miles more exciting than chicken tajine.

OP posts:
GoldfishParade · 18/09/2020 17:30

It's about teaching a savoir vivre and a healthy approach to being at the dinner table and eating three courses.

France is way behind in vegetarianism and any other dietary requirement.

Honestly? Let her eat meat at school

SionnachRua · 18/09/2020 17:35

Why is your 3 year old a vegetarian? Is it a medical issue, or are you just imposing your own beliefs on her?

Oh please, this makes you look either thick or goady. Presumably it's for the same reasons that us omnivores impose our beliefs on our children? Hmm

Sounds like a very difficult situation OP but I understand that the approach to school lunch in France is very different. I think this may be down to cultural differences and agree with others that bulk cooking and freezing meals may be the easiest approach.

LittleBearPad · 18/09/2020 17:38

Presumably she could eat the starter and pud (in the instance of the menu you’re describing as you’re not vegan?) so you need to provide the main course only. It seems rather unfair of the school to say it’s either / or 100% when only one of the courses is problematic.

I’d say you’ll try your best to match, batch cook but if it doesn’t match some days they’ll have to suck it up as they aren’t being accommodating either.

They must have to cope with allergies too so I don’t see why they can’t have a options.

FrenchtoEnglish · 18/09/2020 17:46

I don't know what they do about allergies. I spoke to the chef today and she said that she will try to do a vegetarian day every now and again. She's a lovely woman... but we're slap bang in the middle of the Breton countryside. I imagine my daughter is the first, albeit forced through child cruelty, vegetarian.

OP posts:
pluiedeprintemps · 18/09/2020 17:46

In France at primary school level it is the “commune” and the local mayor that is responsible for School lunches and before and after school care. So it actually has nothing to do with the school ( in some small villages children actually leave the school to go to the village hall for lunchtime).

The rules around lunches are very strict and must meet many many standards - they also have to be reviewed by a nutritionist. Up until recently French law stipulated that the protein source for The main course meal must be of animal origin ( each meal must also contain at least 1 carbohydrate, 1 vegetable, 1 animal protein, one diary product).

Slowly things are changing since November last year each school must have 1 vegetarian meal a week.

There is no “right” to a school meal but it a commune offers the service they must offer it to all children. However the only “special diets ” that are catered for are for children with a PAI ( projet accueil individualisé ) which is a special needs statement.

It is also very very rare to be allowed to bring in a packed lunch - normally it’s forbidden for hygiene rules - and also because when you pay for the school meal you are also paying for the Lunch time supervision etc because it comes out of mairie budget.
I would count your blessings that they are allowing you to take food in - this is already exceptional... and maybe if not see if you can group together with other parents of children who are externes ( don’t have lunch at school) and have the children on a rota and see if they would feed your daughter vegetarian food.

( and, oui, I’m a vegetarian ... and yes when I was at school here years and years ago it was the same and I just had to pick the meat off my plate ... )

Links for those who speak French -

www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/JORFTEXT000024614763/2020-09-18/

agriculture.gouv.fr/egalim-depuis-le-1er-novembre-un-menu-vegetarien-par-semaine-dans-toutes-les-cantines-scolaires

Les déjeuners et dîners servis dans le cadre de la restauration scolaire comprennent nécessairement un plat principal, une garniture, un produit laitier et, au choix, une entrée et/ou un dessert.
La variété des repas est appréciée sur la base de la fréquence de présentation des plats servis au cours de 20 repas successifs selon les règles fixées à l'annexe I du présent arrêté.
La taille des portions servies doit être adaptée au type de plat et à chaque classe d'âge. Les gestionnaires des restaurants scolaires doivent exiger de leurs fournisseurs que les produits alimentaires qu'ils livrent soient conformes aux valeurs précisées à l'annexe II du présent arrêté.

The lunches and dinners served as part of the school catering necessarily include a main course, a side dish, a dairy product and, at your choice, a starter and / or a dessert.
The variety of meals is assessed on the basis of the frequency of presentation of the dishes served during 20 successive meals according to the rules set out in Annex I to this decree.
The size of the portions served must be adapted to the type of dish and to each age group. School canteen managers must require their suppliers that the food products they deliver comply with the values specified in Appendix II of this order.

pluiedeprintemps · 18/09/2020 17:49

Google translated but I’m lazy but here are the legal requirements for school meal mentionned in my post above

DISH PRESENTATION FREQUENCIES

For the purposes of this annex, the following definitions apply:

  • fatty products: products with a fat content greater than 15%;
  • sweet products: products containing more than 20 g of total simple sugars per portion;
  • protein dish: main dish based on meat, fish, eggs, offal or cheese.
The frequencies shown below are defined on the basis of 20 successive meals. To guarantee fiber and vitamin intake, it is advisable to serve:
  • at least 10 meals with, as a starter or as an accompaniment to the dish, raw vegetables or fresh fruit;
  • at least 8 meals with raw fruit for dessert;
  • 10 meals with, as a garnish or as an accompaniment to the protein dish, cooked vegetables, other than dried vegetables;
  • 10 meals with, as a garnish or as an accompaniment to the protein dish, dried vegetables, starches or cereals.
To guarantee calcium intake, it is advisable to serve:
  • at least 8 meals with, as a starter or as a dairy product, cheeses containing at least 150 mg of calcium per portion;
  • at least 4 meals with, as a starter or as a dairy product, cheeses with a calcium content between 100 mg and 150 mg per portion;
  • at least 6 meals with dairy products or dairy desserts containing more than 100 mg of calcium and less than 5 g of fat per serving.
To guarantee the intake of iron and trace elements, it is advisable to serve:
  • at least 4 meals with, as a protein dish, unminced meat of beef, veal, lamb or meat offal;
  • at least 4 meals with, as a protein dish, fish or a preparation of at least 70% fish and containing at least twice as much protein as fat;
  • less than 4 meals with, as a protein dish, a preparation based on meat, fish or egg containing less than 70% of these products.
To limit fat intake, do not serve:
  • more than 4 starters made up of fatty products;
more than 3 desserts made from fatty products;
  • more than 4 protein dishes or garnishes consisting of fatty products to be fried or pre-fried;
  • more than 2 protein dishes which contain as much or more fat than protein.
To limit the intake of simple sugars, do not serve:
  • more than 4 desserts consisting of sweet products and containing less than 15% fat.

FRÉQUENCES DE PRÉSENTATION DES PLATS

Au sens de la présente annexe, on entend par :
― produits gras : produits à teneur en matières grasses supérieure à 15 % ;
― produits sucrés : produits contenant plus de 20 g de sucres simples totaux par portion ;
― plat protidique : plat principal à base de viandes, poissons, œufs, abats ou fromages.
Les fréquences figurant ci-dessous sont définies sur la base de 20 repas successifs.
Pour garantir les apports en fibres et en vitamines, il convient de servir :
― au moins 10 repas avec, en entrée ou accompagnement du plat, des crudités de légumes ou des fruits frais ;
― au moins 8 repas avec en dessert des fruits crus ;
― 10 repas avec, en garniture ou accompagnement du plat protidique, des légumes cuits, autres que les légumes secs ;
― 10 repas avec, en garniture ou accompagnement du plat protidique, des légumes secs, féculents ou céréales.
Pour garantir les apports en calcium, il convient de servir :
― au moins 8 repas avec, en entrée ou en produit laitier, des fromages contenant au moins 150 mg de calcium par portion ;
― au moins 4 repas avec, en entrée ou en produit laitier, des fromages dont la teneur en calcium est comprise entre 100 mg et 150 mg par portion ;
― au moins 6 repas avec des produits laitiers ou des desserts lactés contenant plus de 100 mg de calcium et moins de 5 g de matières grasses par portion.
Pour garantir les apports en fer et en oligoéléments, il convient de servir :
― au moins 4 repas avec, en plat protidique, des viandes non hachées de bœuf, veau, agneau ou des abats de boucherie ;
― au moins 4 repas avec, en plat protidique, du poisson ou une préparation d'au moins 70 % de poisson et contenant au moins deux fois plus de protéines que de matières grasses ;
― moins de 4 repas avec, en plat protidique, une préparation à base de viande, de poisson ou d'œuf contenant moins de 70 % de ces produits.
Pour limiter les apports en matières grasses, il convient de ne pas servir :
― plus de 4 entrées constituées de produits gras ;
plus de 3 desserts constitués de produits gras ;
― plus de 4 plats protidiques ou garnitures constitués de produits gras à frire ou préfrits ;
― plus de 2 plats protidiques qui contiendraient autant ou plus de matières grasses que de protéines.
Pour limiter les apports en sucres simples, il convient de ne pas servir :
― plus de 4 desserts constitués de produits sucrés et contenant moins de 15 % de matières grasses.

pluiedeprintemps · 18/09/2020 17:54

Sorry for the long posts @FrenchtoEnglish - but maybe if you could find a way to prove you are following the above nutritional guidelines and just replacing animal protein with plant based protein - you wouldn’t have to make exactly the same meal ... that’s all I can think of. Good luck.

FrenchtoEnglish · 18/09/2020 17:57

Thank you @pluiedeprintemps! Those links are very useful! My sister lives just outside Paris and her kids have two veggie meals a week. So, it's 50% (no school on Wednesdays).
DD was in a private crèche (association). They had veggie options every day. It was all very organic/hippy/eco-warrior. So, I think the local school has come as a bit of a shock. They also have school on Wednesdays. And it's always entrée, plat, dessert. Maybe they're just going their own way.

Anyway, the chef says veggie meal for everyone on Monday next week. I will get into the rhythm of it. I just fancied a bit of a moan. :-)

OP posts:
Okaro · 18/09/2020 17:59

How does your daughter feel? Is she upset she has to be picked up? Does she want to eat with her friends? Did she understand why?

It’s a shame the school don’t take in to consideration everyone’s dietary requirements but there is not much you can if they have rules in place.
Is there no other local schools that do more of a variety in regards to food options? As picking up a child every day for 2 hours sounds like a nightmare and not something a majority of parents would be able to facilitate. My child has Food allergies and there is no way I would be able
To collect them Every day just to eat!