To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

[quote Notfeelinggreattoday]@RepeatSwan its not irrelevant there is a lot we don't learn and as years go by less and less , as more history is created . Do you accept than many people like it or not in uk today benefited from the empire as well ?do you not think balance should be to show good and bad and also to look at what the thinking was at the time , how the world worked then may also go to show why some things were done , you have to look at it all and not just by todays standards [/quote]
Well no, I dont, clearly. I am wary of too much 'balance'. It isn't necessary to be 'balanced' when being honest, so if the truth weighs heavily to the good or to the bad that is just how it is.

I think if one looks at colonisation with eyes wide open it is an astounding thing.

Exactly and is any other country any better?

I'd argue the ones accepting, acknowledging and attempting to make redress are. . .

The fact that many British people today have links to the colonies is EXACTLY why we should be acknowledging the realities of the empire in schools and other public forums

Many but not all.

How many people alive to day have parents or grandparents who are not from Britain.

I would say that it isn’t as large a percentage as you think.

Out of about 20 people I know only 2 would fall into the category of being able to track both them and both their parents and all their grandparents back to birth places in the UK

I believe there is a common joke in Germany that Hitler was in fact Austrian.

Of course other countries get pulled up on these things, you just won’t hear about it as much because you’re not in those countries exposed to their media! Reminds me of a friend who was in France when the Olympics was on years ago. She was most indignant as they kept showing French athletes even when they weren't medal winners. I pointed out that here we would see lots of British athletes even if they weren't winning and she refused to believe me, she insisted that British TV showed all nationalities equally.

@mbosnz

Perhaps if more was taught about the impacts of colonisation, future Britons might feel a little less victimised and aggrieved at being 'got at', and might perhaps understand a little more why those histories and descendants of nations and cultures negatively impacted are sometimes a little insensitive to the tender feelings of some British when discussing such things?

It’s not entirely relevant, but could I put in a plea for the working classes of England who were the Victorian imperialists’ first victims?

I’ve been noticing a tendency to glorify Victorian times and the industrial revolution with no reference to their struggles since the 80s too. It’s been getting steadily worse. Many were driven as homeless beggars into the cities, and it took all of the 19th century for new social contracts to begin emerging.

I'm really not sure what the purpose of feeling eternally guilt ridden for empire is. My family has been traced back a few hundred years and they are all recorded as industrial workers / cart makers so i can't feel much in the way of ancestral guilt tbh. Personally I think we should be far more concerned with what we are doing now ie. Buying clothes from sweatshops, contributing to global warming etc. We are literally damaging people and the planet as we speak but seem to be focusing all our attention on something that none of us have had any control over. I prefer to put my energy into things I can control.

I have no family links to the former colonies but still would wish to include the reality of colonialism in the history curriculum.

@mbosnz

Exactly and is any other country any better?

I'd argue the ones accepting, acknowledging and attempting to make redress are. . .

Like Germany?

@Notfeelinggreattoday Anglo centric - as in about the experiences of white british people of Anglo Saxon origin. All that stuff about ‘Great Britons’ that the Tories love.

@Oliversmumsarmy it’s not just relevant to people whose families came from former colonies. How about those whose families worked in the colonies, served in them in the forces (I for one have these connections in my own family and we’re as white working class in origin as they come), live in diverse communities and have friends and neighbours whose experiences aren’t reflected in their history books, who see the BLM protests and don’t understand why the participants are so angry.... the history of empire affects all of our lives!

Haven't read the whole thread but a bit of a history nerd.

A lot of what we know about the Roman Empire comes from Victorian historians who were using it to justify the British Empire. The notion of 'bringing civilisation to the masses' being an obvious part. Both empires really came about because of trade, goods and desire to exploit resources in other places. The British Empire was also partly in response to a 'land grab' from other European states like the Dutch, french and German.

History is always hard for those that come after. Take a look at books like The Reader which deal with German youths of the 60s and 70s coming to terms with the actions of their parents.

We cannot ever erase history, nor should we censor it because it no longer fits with society's morals.

Don't have to feel guilt ridden about it. Just be able to accept and respect the fact that other nations/nationalities and cultures may not have a positive perspective on the British Empire, and for good reasons, and preferably not play the victim about it.

No one today bears guilt for the past. We can bear guilt for not acknowledging the reality of the past I think.

OP read some history. The effects of the empire are still happening today and because other empires committed terrible acts is irrelevant.

@RepeatSwan

No one today bears guilt for the past. We can bear guilt for not acknowledging the reality of the past I think.

Elegantly put.

How many people alive to day have parents or grandparents who are not from Britain.

I think the Life in the UK test has us memorize that one in ten Brits have at least one grandparent that wasn't born in the UK, but it's notoriously inaccurate. I know there was other stats recently that says of children born in the last few years, 1-in-3 has a parent that wasn't born here, but again that is inaccuarte and doesn't mean a person wasn't British. It does mean more likely have connections elsewhere than may be expected.

Exactly and is any other country any better?

Different countries are best at different things, no country is the best for everything, can't really think of anything Britain is #1 at at this time, and just because immigrants come to the UK doesn't mean it's the best country in the world. It's just one us migrants could access at the time.

VeganVeal was taking the piss, right?

I tried looking up the curriculum here as I'm sure I'll leave some out/it will have changed but whoever listed above what was studied in history class in the UK(Tudors, both world wars etc). We did that, bronze/stone age, industrial revolution, cold war, Irish war of independence, famine, middle ages, colonialism in America and Africa, art history, science history and I'm sure more before I could drop the subject. That was a twice a week class in secondary school, I can't remember how much in primary (not much). You can get alot covered in not much time.

Also for a not exhaustive list of the country's probably due an apology....

Are you aware that Scotland joined the United Kingdom on the promise of the riches of the spoil in India. Have a look at the Scottish and Indian historical relations, have look at Glasgow Jamaican relations. This was not an English disease Scotland were completely complicit in ‘Empire’ building.

I too am Scottish and I have researched this.

I'm sure your right. And I'm sure great chunks of India and Africa were sold by their owners to Western Colonials on similar promises (and Chicago Gangster like promises of 'protection'). Doesn't mean that it was a good idea and we shouldn't acknowledge our part, make what reparations we can, and get the hell out of the toxic relationship that caused it.

'It’s not entirely relevant, but could I put in a plea for the working classes of England who were the Victorian imperialists’ first victims? I’ve been noticing a tendency to glorify Victorian times and the industrial revolution with no reference to their struggles since the 80s too. It’s been getting steadily worse. Many were driven as homeless beggars into the cities, and it took all of the 19th century for new social contracts to begin emerging.'

Exactly. Many, many things in recent history were terrible. Of course it's whataboutery but whatabout the workhouses, the 'convicts' hung for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their starving family or shipped to colonies in Australia. I don't know anyone who feels responsible for such things though. Lessons have been learnt in this country anyway. I wish people put as much energy into complaing about modern day slavery and poverty. They are maybe concerned about that too but the British Empire is always the target for some reason.

@feelingsareweird can you say what though is anglo saxon only that they now learn ? Only one of my ones does history at gcse level the other chose geography they both have learnt a lot about slavery , and the world wars in secondary
Primary the great fire of london and bits like that only

No, the British Empire is not always the target. Although obviously, of course, it is often a target, because of how large the British Empire was, and how many nations it impacted.

However, the Japanese Empire is also a target, however, you'd most probably not be as aware of that, or sensitive to it. And with very good reason, the Japanese Empire has been guilty of some horrendous doings against the nations it impacted.

At the moment, America and China are under the spotlight for their current actions in other nations territory, as is Russia of course.

@Oliversmumsarmy

Brefugee

You were saying how German children were visiting Holocaust sites and British children should do the same.

I was asking where should they go for a day trip in school.

I did learn about the Potato famine in school. I have a vague recollection of it.
Like most people I don’t think I have given it a moments thought since.
It had nothing to do with me or my parents or my grandparents

Please don't call it the Potato Famine. I have explained above why that term is not considered acceptable.

Lessons have been learnt in this country anyway.

Lessons were learnt. I rather fear they are being unlearnt, extremely quickly.

Spoke to ds 2 who is doing history gcse hasn't really learnt about empire apparently public health ?? , bronze age and world wars

DD who just did GCSE's, did history of medicine (that could be the public health?), the Tudors, and Nazi Germany.