To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

@Brefugee - about as much as the English educate themselves about the exact causes and effects of the Irish Potato Famine.

I'm not picking on you specifically as I have seen the same term used by others, but the term "Irish Potato Famine" is a bit dismissive of the enormity of the famine. I know it is used by some people outside Ireland but it's really not appropriate. The Irish Famine is more acceptable wording.

And for anyone wondering why the Irish were so dependent on the potato, it was due to british policy whereby catholics had to divide the land they rented between all sons, meaning plots were so small the potato was the only crop that could be grown in sufficient quantities to feed families.

What's next @VeganVeal ? Holocaust jokes?

@Leafyhouse

I'm with you on this OP. This current trend of 'revisionist history' is a new arena of ignorance. I think you can't judge historic events using modern values. I often wonder what we're doing right now that will be condemned by future generations.

Nonsense. I would say that hiding the real truth of the Empire and only teaching the so-called "positives" - if there are any - is what has been revisionist.

I grew up in the 80s and it was not taught in the curriculum then. It seemed only the ethnic minorities knew about the empire and none of the white kids did. One (white, english) girl at school even asked me what it was, and what I was talking about!!

And it has created generations who have grown up in ignorance about the real evils of the empire. Teaching the truth is not revisionist.

It's time the British learned the truth about their history.

Do the Germans acknowledge the African genocide they were involved in at the turn of the century though

Yes they do, although there is still a long way to go in this area in terms of teaching it in schools and making formal reparations.

Until recently Germany's colonial past was consistently downplayed in part because it only lasted for about 40 years. But thanks to a lot of effort from activists, this has begun to change in the last five years especially. I won't lie though, there is still a lot that needs to be done. And progress has mostly been made with respect to the Herero and Nama genocide, while atrocities in Tanzania get no attention.

But in general, you don't see an argument in Germany claiming that their empire was a good thing or should be celebrated. The debate is more about how it should be taught and what sorts of measures should be taken to make amends.

And I hope your comment is left to stand @VeganVeal because people need to see how ignorant and insulting you are so I haven't reported it.

Is that you, Marie Antoinette? @VeganVeal

And by the way it's affected not effected.

mbosnz

Absolutely. You just jogged my memory, as i know remember Canada has done something similar.

From the 1870 the Canadian government forcibly removed 150,000 First Nation children from thier families and put them in state run boarding schools. They purposely stole the children from the families.

The Canadian government have said sorry and is trying to redress all the atrocities committed to the First Nation.
Whilst it in no way undoes the hurt, pain, lasting effects, it must be better than saying "oh, well that happened centuries ago, I didn't personally do it, so let's all get over it".

Yes, lots of countries have lots to be ashamed off. I only learnt recently about the part Irishmen had in the attacks on the Native Americans.

But they are not still doing it!!

Whereas HMG is CURRENTLY threatening to break international law and the Good Friday Agreement. Which tbh terrifies me.

Most other countries want peace and cooperation with their neighbours.

[quote OchonAgusOchonO]**@Brefugee* - about as much as the English educate themselves about the exact causes and effects of the Irish Potato Famine.*

I'm not picking on you specifically as I have seen the same term used by others, but the term "Irish Potato Famine" is a bit dismissive of the enormity of the famine. I know it is used by some people outside Ireland but it's really not appropriate. The Irish Famine is more acceptable wording.

And for anyone wondering why the Irish were so dependent on the potato, it was due to british policy whereby catholics had to divide the land they rented between all sons, meaning plots were so small the potato was the only crop that could be grown in sufficient quantities to feed families.[/quote]
I was about to post this.

It's exceedingly amusing, all the odium directed towards the former British Empire, no other country has ever had a colonial past, no other country has artefacts from other countries in its museums etc according to the simpletons. Colonialism was a worldwide 'thing', but, hey, no-one loathes their own country quite as much as some elements of this country.

Most other countries want peace and cooperation with their neighbours.

Ha, would you like to cash this million pound cheque I have received from an obscure cousin? Your naivity seems to know no bounds.

Brefugee

You were saying how German children were visiting Holocaust sites and British children should do the same.

I was asking where should they go for a day trip in school.

I did learn about the Potato famine in school. I have a vague recollection of it.
Like most people I don’t think I have given it a moments thought since.
It had nothing to do with me or my parents or my grandparents

A lot of people view the British Empire as a flex, yeah, awesome - we ruled over half the world - how good were we.

Negating the massacres, raping, pillaging and general ruin that the empire caused.

I'm surprised the world isn't more pissed at us even today

@keeprocking

It's exceedingly amusing, all the odium directed towards the former British Empire, no other country has ever had a colonial past, no other country has artefacts from other countries in its museums etc according to the simpletons. Colonialism was a worldwide 'thing', but, hey, no-one loathes their own country quite as much as some elements of this country.

Oh I’m all for decolonising the legacies of all the European empires! And dismantling neocolonial structures while we’re at it! But I’m British and I have the most knowledge about Britain and the most power to change things here.

Just because other places have a history too doesn’t mean we shouldn’t learn about and address our own, surely?! I never understand this argument...

My take on it is that I think it makes no sense at all to the "proud" of the British Empire, but I also don't think we should necessarily be "ashamed" either.

The British Empire is a fact, and it was part of a trend where wealthy European Countries were competing for resources, and it ultimately led to a vast number of terrible acts and massacres which children (and adults) should learn about.

There is also a need to put it in context. When the East India Company arrived in India, it did so by getting concessions from an existing empire (the Mughal Empire), and the EIC gained strength after the collapse of that Empire due to attacks by the Persians and regional powers (the Marathas). The British were competing with other European powers, including the French, Dutch and Portugese.

And as others have said, European Colonialism has a greater impact on the way the World is today compared to less recent empires (the Romans for example).

@keeprocking exactly this only britain that did any of this , people are comparing with modern day and its not that simple

@feelingsareweird so you want to erase history and can't accept life was different then
Do you not think in 100 years times people will look at things we think are normal today and maybe horrified
What about some countries who like to be say part of the commonwealth etc , do we not take what they want in to account now

...odd to me that the British are expected to flog themselves for things their far ancestors did, and yet the Germans are not for things their grandparents did

My grandad is German, he was a HJ messenger boy -12 years old- towards the end of the war. He can tell you about cycling through Hamburg as it was bombed / burned by the allies. He has some horrific memories of people screaming and burning alive...

I think as with any country's history, it's important to take equal ownership of the 'good' and the 'bad'. It's when the 'good' is glorified and magnified, and the 'bad' is minimised, if acknowledged at all, that you're going to find that those who suffered, (and sometimes are still suffering) as a result of that country's impact on their country and people are possibly going to be less than amenable to having their side of history minimised, ignored, or whitewashed.

My family traces its roots to New Zealand back to 1840, coming from Scotland, Ireland, England, and Wales. A number of my family find it very difficult and uncomfortable to acknowledge the negative impact of the colonists on the Maori. (Oooooooh boy, the arguments my father and I used to have!). Then again, so did I, because at school we were taught a very rosy tinted, white washed version of New Zealand history, that was all about how wonderful Colonisation had been for Maori and New Zealand as a whole.

@BinkyBoinky really i went to school in the 80's and we learnt very little about the empire
More things like great fire of london and henry v111 wifes , and world war one and two , we barely touched the empire at all
Two ds in school now again barely taught anything about empire good or bad

@BinkyBoinky the british do know a lot of the truth about it but every country has behaved badly by today's standard and i don't see the world tell them to all to learn about their bad pasts etc , but it always seems fair game to say the british should or the brits are this or that
You also realise lots of people associate themselves as british now whose ancestors would of been affected by the colonies

@keeprocking

It's exceedingly amusing, all the odium directed towards the former British Empire, no other country has ever had a colonial past, no other country has artefacts from other countries in its museums etc according to the simpletons. Colonialism was a worldwide 'thing', but, hey, no-one loathes their own country quite as much as some elements of this country.

Not sure about this. I feel many other countries with colonial pasts have moved on more comprehensively. For example, France no longer has a monarchy or a second chamber comprised of hereditary peers.

Some of the strong feelings are generated by the fact Britain feels very wedded to the past perhaps.

I would love a more meaningful democracy etc.

@Notfeelinggreattoday
Eh? Where have I said anything about erasing history? I literally said the opposite - that we can’t just ignore the past because ‘I didn’t do it so it’s not my problem’ or ‘they had different morals then so it’s irrelevant now’. I’m arguing for more attention being paid to history not less!