To think parents will begin to lie

[Settleandcalm]

DD has a slight temp for one day, as a result doing the right thing we eventually got the test, and a veeeery long time later the results. The test was awful making her vomit over herself, the wait for my older children who are already struggling being in and out of school also awful. But it was the right thing to do.

BUT. Would I put her through that test every 3 weeks which is the average she got a temp:cough last year? No. Can I afford to lose my job? No. I will do the right thing but I have an utter fear over it.

But I suppose I wonder how long it will take parents to start slipping back to the “watch and see” version of illness. If it’s just a bit of a temp on one day... just a bit of a cough... maybe give them a day and see if they are fine, rather than fight for a test or isolate The whole family for 14 days.

There are already kids in school coughing and I know only us and one other family has tested, so perhaps, because of the testing fiasco and inconsistent rules people are already starting to lie?

Which takes us back to Gilead IFish because we all know that parental responsibility should we regress falls on the main the the mothers.

@lughnasadh

are you a teacher then? So salaried? And presumably paid for sick leave?Not even near in the same league as people on zero hours contracts who literally end up with nothing at all because their child has a cold

Yes, I’m a teacher. You presume wrong. I won’t be paid for being off because my children are unwell. I will get SSP if I am ill. I am zero hours for 2 days a week. So 2/5 of my income would disappear over night if I get sick or am otherwise unable to work.. As a single parent of 3 with childcare and an elderly parent to support, my getting sick is no laughing matter. We are also vulnerable on several accounts so statistically at least will suffer if we contract Covid. My 85 year old mother would likely die.

@QuestionMarkNow

Do you have children in free school meal, you know the ones who have ONE cooked meal in the day and that is their school lunch? The ones who turn up at school with the cheapest shoes and it’s clear they only have one uniform set.Will you tell those kids that it’s better for them to stay at home and see their parent lose that zero hour contract? Any idea of how they are going to eat or have a warm house or have some new clothes once they’ve grown out of their one set?

See above but answer me this. If a parent on zero hours needs to work, and can’t take the risk of not turning up to work, why is that more important than my family losing a significant portion of its income if a child with a zero hours parent is wrongly sent to school and infects me? How will that child be helped when my class is shut down at least part of the time and supply can’t be secured to continue?

Or are you suggesting that school staff and their families don’t matter? That we can’t possibly be worried about how we will feed our families or pay rent? That we could never be vulnerable? Because to me, it sounds like a huge ‘fuck you, your life doesn’t matter’. It does. It really does.

I am actually in tears now thinking about all those people out there who see me and my family as collateral damage.

@hitchhikingghost

I’m in a country that never had lockdown. Doesn’t mean we don’t follow the general rules, because everyone does. Keeping distance, not visiting elderly, mostly staying at home unless you have to go out etc. Schools 16 and under have been open the entire time, kids and teachers stay home if they have the slightest symptom. Out of respect to others, it’s for our own good and we don’t want to wear masks or have a lockdown because this will most likely go on for a long time. In March our nursery and school was almost empty, because parents followed the rules. And washed hands more carefully. Same in August when the kids started again. But - after about 4 wks both times we’ve had full classes. Noone got sick. No colds, no flu, no cough. And that is only because people stayed at home from the beginning when they should, no giving paracetamol in the morning, no pretending not having the beginning of a cold.. It’s interesting. No tests for kids either, because it’s horrible for them to go through. So if everyone actually followed the basics we would all eventually be better off in the end.

This would work fine, if it were not for childcare issues when kids are home. Too many parents simply don't have the flexibility, and were struggling already with sick days and also regular days off school.

@Juststopswimming

yeah i agree there are variations on the 'lying' !

Its all so shit and I am so goddamn angry at our shitty government for allowing this to happen. If we had enough tests that could be processed in a reasonable timeframe we wouldnt even be sat here discussing this. I mean yes some people would still send their kids in/refuse to isolate but i bet vast swathes of people would be more inclined to follow what they're supposed to. Utter joke.

I'm not so sure faster testing would help as much as people think. I'm outside of the UK and we are following a fairly similar approach.

One difference is snotty nose IS a testable symptom - I spent this morning humming and hawing over my son who is suffering badly from seasonal allergies. In the end I gave him an allergy pill, and as it helped a lot, I assumed it isn't Covid. By the book I should have taken him to be tested.

Anyway, our testing is now in quite good time, but a lot of the same issues are still in place. Many people have no fall back for childcare, and no real options in terms of taking time off work. Even a day. For many the usual sick days were already a struggle, and with this you can't send them to a sitter or a grandparent.

@Ihatefish

“But you can't have a whole society based on what amounts to state childcare and two-income families and think that somehow you can just change that without putting some supports in place. What we've seen is that rather like the supply chain, our domestic/work arrangements in many nations are not very resilient.“

Absolutely agree with this. Most people’s lives are that on the edge even in normal circumstances that even a slight deviation from the norm can see the whole thing starting to tumble, Covid has shown the incompatibility of long work hours by both parents as largely incompatible with family life and how reliant it is on outsourcing a lot of the traditionally parental role. When those outsourcing options are no longer there the parents’ working patterns are no longer sustainable.

What I find interesting about this, from a more intellectual/analysis perspective, is that it suggests some of the limits of the form of leftist politics that has come to dominate the left in places like the UK, Canada, and even the US. The constant refrain is to improve access to childcare or even have state run care along similar lines to places like France.

The conservative argument has always been that this will never be quite up to the level as care in the home by a parent, which has generally been interpreted by the left as a moral statement, and a questionable one at that.

What we are seeing though is that there is a real practical concrete sense in which it is true - in a buck stops here kind of way, parents are always the ones who are responsible if their child can't be fit into the regular state sponsored or private care options. In part because parents of other kids will see that child denied care rather than endanger their own kids - their sense of responsibility is always first to their own kids.

It turns out the household realm is actually an important part of a functioning economy, and yet it's demands require something more than most regular jobs.

@Enoughnowstop, nope I just have never met a teacher who was in zero hour contract.
Working as temp, only replacement etc... yes but not zero hour contract.

And what you are describing is exactly what all those parents are going through so I am assure that you understand their predicament.
The fact the environment is potentially unsafe or not enough is been done to protect teachers is a different issue.
I work (physically) close to people (think massage and the like). If anything I am certainly in the category of people that is at extreme high risk of catching the virus if someone is asymptomatic etc... if I get it, I’m off work (Obviously) and have no income. However, I don’t feel like you do because I know that I have taken all the measure i can as a protection.
Your issue here is the lack of protection, not children coming in with a cold and a bit of cough. Mainly because children are probably the category where the % of asymptomatic is the highest

I disagree @Goosefoot. I think that what we see is the limitation of a system that is only reliant on the individual with little input of the ‘state’

So we are now in a situation where the society as a whole is not very resilient BECAUSE there is no buffer in place. And by that I mean a decent heath system, a decent social care as well as care homes etc..., a decent paid leave in case of illness etc....

If people were automatically getting 100% of their wage if they were off with their Dcs due to Covid, much less people would try and fib. (As far as I know that’s what happens in France for example - a leave of absence due to a child at home because they are ill/need to self isolate is treated as an illness and parents are paid in full. They dint get a warning for a high number of absence either).

So it’s not that the buck stops where the parents but more that the resilience of the society is highly correlated with the support system it has in place for the more vulnerable in the society (which happens to be most people just now)

And what you are describing is exactly what all those parents are going through so I am assure that you understand their predicament

Zero hours in the sense I get no pay during holidays and no pay if I don’t work. The contract guarantees me the work but that’s not much use if I can’t. Probably better than zero hours because the work is there but useless when it comes to dealing with illness.

it won’t be me lying to get my kids into school. Because despite the fact I can see that my situation could get desperate over the winter, I value the health of my children’s teachers and won’t be putting them at risk. You are suggesting fundamentally I should accept the risk and if anything happens to me, it’s just tough. I don’t accept that. Your children, however lovely, are not more important in my life than my children. My children are no less deserving of a parent in their life than yours.

@steppemum sorry it came out like I said I actually know you. No, of course I don't know you. I meant I read your comments over the years and you always stood out as a great poster with great opinions.
It must have creeped you out, sorry!

[quote pastandpresent]@steppemum sorry it came out like I said I actually know you. No, of course I don't know you. I meant I read your comments over the years and you always stood out as a great poster with great opinions.
It must have creeped you out, sorry![/quote]

I did realise you meant knew me as a poster, not in real life! (my secret stalker!)

I also sort of thought you meant that I was a bolshy poster, so I am glad to see that it was a mark of approval!
No need to apologise.

@LindaEllen

I know it's difficult to deal with, in fact it's a complete nightmare. But if parents are going to purposefully hide symptoms to allow their child to go to school, why are we doing this? Instead of one parent having to stay off work, it's going to be a whole class full when they have to isolate.

I think at this point we have to either accept it as a part of the many viruses in circulation, or we have to lock down FULLY again. I don't mind which, but this awful middle ground where people can't afford to keep their kids off because there's no support for that situation just isn't sustainable.

With the best will in the world, do you think there will be support this time if we completely lock down? That’s assuming you meant financial support? I can’t see furlough happening again, there’s no money for it.

@garkandgookin surely that whole bubble would have had to be off anyway? Regardless of whether the child had come in to school that day.

[quote IndecentFeminist]@garkandgookin surely that whole bubble would have had to be off anyway? Regardless of whether the child had come in to school that day.[/quote]
Only if the child had been in with symptoms I think. If they had stayed off we would just have warned parents to be alert. The deputy had asked Public Health England and I think that is what they said. I am not management though so wasn't in the actual meeting, I just spoke to dept head afterwards.

When you say slight temp? If it was above 38 you should seek a test but anything less I wouldn't. Both my children have been ill with colds (runny noses) but with the colds were slight coughs and elevated temperatures. Not above 38 and the coughs were not continuous, just the usual tickle with a cold. I kept mine home for a couple of days to monitor but I didn't get a test (my husband and I both work from home too). Maybe I'm wrong but they're saying runny noses are not symptoms.

The government guidelines are 37.8 and over.

@Bupkis Yes, that's been clear from the start, that it's been about a temperature of 37.8 or over, not over 38, though it seems that a lot of people are not taking that in. I think in view of this new rise in cases, that needs to be taken more seriously right now.

Parents should not be testing unless they have definite Covid symptoms as explained to me by 119 when I spoke to them Tuesday.... my dd has a cold, i.e. sore throat blocked and runny nose, but the school wanted confirmation from her doctor she would not need a test.... sometimes the schools are a bit ott.... and the nhs cannot keep testing people .... it seems even if you gat flagged on track and trace as having been near a confirmed case of Covid you should isolate and not test unless you show definite symptoms..... of course as we know symptoms are subject to change

Sorry get not gat

@Bupkis

The government guidelines are 37.8 and over.

Where is this guidance from? The only Gov guidance I can see says just a high temperature and does not specify an actual measurement.

Elsewhere the nhs say an elevated temperature is 38.0 and above.

I would not test for a temp of less than 38.

I agree it is probably not sustainable to test every infant child with a cough but equally I would not want to be the head of a school that is telling parents not to test for coughs and then gets a Covid outbreak....

[quote Enoughnowstop]@lughnasadh

are you a teacher then? So salaried? And presumably paid for sick leave?Not even near in the same league as people on zero hours contracts who literally end up with nothing at all because their child has a cold

Yes, I’m a teacher. You presume wrong. I won’t be paid for being off because my children are unwell. I will get SSP if I am ill. I am zero hours for 2 days a week. So 2/5 of my income would disappear over night if I get sick or am otherwise unable to work.. As a single parent of 3 with childcare and an elderly parent to support, my getting sick is no laughing matter. We are also vulnerable on several accounts so statistically at least will suffer if we contract Covid. My 85 year old mother would likely die.

@QuestionMarkNow

Do you have children in free school meal, you know the ones who have ONE cooked meal in the day and that is their school lunch? The ones who turn up at school with the cheapest shoes and it’s clear they only have one uniform set.Will you tell those kids that it’s better for them to stay at home and see their parent lose that zero hour contract? Any idea of how they are going to eat or have a warm house or have some new clothes once they’ve grown out of their one set?

See above but answer me this. If a parent on zero hours needs to work, and can’t take the risk of not turning up to work, why is that more important than my family losing a significant portion of its income if a child with a zero hours parent is wrongly sent to school and infects me? How will that child be helped when my class is shut down at least part of the time and supply can’t be secured to continue?

Or are you suggesting that school staff and their families don’t matter? That we can’t possibly be worried about how we will feed our families or pay rent? That we could never be vulnerable? Because to me, it sounds like a huge ‘fuck you, your life doesn’t matter’. It does. It really does.

I am actually in tears now thinking about all those people out there who see me and my family as collateral damage.[/quote]
Take no notice of them. People have absolutely lost their minds on mumsnet. Some of the things people are saying are shocking.

Ds has had a cold since last weekend. Full of snot, sneezing and a hoarse voice. He also coughs in a morning, probably coughing the mucos up from his nose overnight.

I seriously considered keeping him home friday (they finish early at 1.10pm anyway) and saying he had been sick, rather than risk him being sent home and told to self isolate for 14 days for coughing when I know it's a cold cough. If he self isolates we all do if he's self isolating for symptoms.

Test and trace won't work unless the tests are available and come back quickly. People can see the logic in close contacts self isolating but not in families isolating for a common cold.

DTD1 had a sore throat and cough last week. No temperature though and the cough was occasional rather than persistent. We kept her off for two days (as we would have any year) as she felt rough. NHS said no need for a test and she should go back to school when she felt better. She was still coughing a bit when she went back. Thankfully her school is run by a highly capable and sensible woman, and there have been no questions or hysteria about whether or not she should be in school - it’s quite clearly a seasonal cold.

@cloudyautumnday

The NHS guidance re COVID-19 symptoms regularly quoted on the BBC News always said 37.8, right from the beginning, not 38 and above. It was repeated regularly during the first wave. So I don't know how come so many people didn't hear this.

Anyway, there isn't always a temperature; other symptoms are a new and continuous cough or loss of smell/taste.