To not pay for gym classes cancelled by the instructor

[KindOfAwkward]

My DD goes to after-school gym classes (two hours on a weeknight and also two hours on the weekend) held at her school but run by an outside instructor.

We pay at the start of the term for the classes with the fees based directly on hours you attend i.e. one or two hours per session, and one or two sessions a week.

At the start of the pandemic, the instructor cancelled the remaining classes - about two weeks of the term were left up until Easter hols.

At the start of this term, we paid for the new term, and I deducted a sum equal to the cancelled classes, i.e. two weeks of two classes of two hours = 8 hours, and paid for the forthcoming hours in advance.

The teacher queried my bank payment and so I explained the maths, also explaining that since she has neither explained in the past six months whether she was planning on credit the cancelled fees, nor the opposite and said that she was not planning to do this, but in fact said nothing at all, that I had simply done the maths myself.

She has come back and said, that the letter she sends out stats that fees paid are non-refundable. I will almost certainly reply to say that IMHO the point about fees being non-refundable was surely about parents wanting refunds if, THEY choose not to attend if say, their child doesn't want to go, or they are away for a weekend, but it surely cannot cover the teacher cancelling the class. Otherwise, taken to its logical conclusion she could take bookings for a whole term and then immediately cancel the classes! Or cancel classes if she fancied a day off. And still be paid! This aside, this is probably not the issue to be querying, rather that even if fees are deemed and accepted by us as non-refundable, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be transferrable and credited to future classes. It would be entirely fair to simply credit the money, as she normally does if e.g. she cannot do a class because of another commitment or illness. So, to sum up, I can agree with her term about no refunds, but think she is not being fair about crediting the fees for the classes she cancelled herself. Principle is surely the same as, say, a clothes shop saying,:"We can't refund your money, but you can have a credit note." Am I being unreasonable to at the very least point out the logic of my position and see if the teacher can accept that.

@nancy75, @Frazzled2207 its utter shit! We have separate businesses (not big), and don't earn loads anyway. The first 2 years they took into account, my earnings weren't very high, third year was better, this year, I have earned the most I have ever earned. Unfortunately that wasn't included.
My dp only went self employed at the very end of the first tax year they were counting, so 6 weeks out of a whole year was used to average out his grant. (He was employed before) then his first full year was a bit slow, so again, the grant he got was nothing like what he is earning now.
Self employed people have been totally shit on, then on top of that you have the attitude from people that we are all fiddling our books! When the truth is for me, I don't claim anywhere near the expenses I could claim in my tax return. I certainly will be from now on.

I don't see what your clear has got to do with it? She would have got the self employed grant too

@Iminaglasscaseofemotion yep, it’s been rubbish - people think we’ve had money thrown at the business left right & centre and had no outgoings - couldn’t be more wrong! We had to have 2 floodlight bulbs changed the other day (on our worthless £65k courts) £1250 - we’ve got 20 of them to maintain! Court cleaning £1k, insurance costs that make you wince. Anyone that thinks a kids activity provider earns a fortune should think again

I will say some people have been fantastic, we had lots of people book for April to July knowing we would be closed & telling us to keep the payment even if the lesson didn’t go ahead - they see the business as something worth having, I must admit a few of those emails made me cry as we were closing everything down

@Iminaglasscaseofemotion

I don't see what your clear has got to do with it? She would have got the self employed grant too

You mean cleaner, right? No chance of SE grant. Have to have three years of accounts. She's not been in the UK more than a year or so?

Point of mentioning her, was to show I am not money grabbing. I just like to feel I have a choice what to do with my money. To treat people fairly and be treated likewise. I chose to give our cleaner maybe £500 or more because she didn't ask, or insist, and because I knew she would find the money important, and had less of a right to the money because with her it is usually strictly 'you come and get paid, and you don't come, you don't'

No, I meant clear 🙄.
So how do you know the person/people running the class were entitled to the grant? Truth is you almost certainly don't, because its unlikely for people to disclose that type of information to people they don't know very well.

Does anyone else think "In the event of a global catastrophe / worldwide pandemic your payment will not be refundable" is going to be a standard clause in all contracts from now on!

I think YABU. She didn’t cancel the classes the pandemic did. I would have let it go. I definitely see your logic though and YANBU for pointing it out to her.

Hmmm it actually raises such a good point though... if children needed to self isolate due to the pandemic would she refund their missed class fee? If she wouldn’t then she is having her cake and eating it.

Gone full circle to YANBU

@JovialNickname

Does anyone else think "In the event of a global catastrophe / worldwide pandemic your payment will not be refundable" is going to be a standard clause in all contracts from now on!

Absolutely, just like act of god is a typical clause.

@mamangelo
i run a business like this and have had to make it clear that unfortunatley due to self isolation I can't refund. I can't really operate otherwise as i would be potentially refunding people all the time. I will offer an online option but can't be sure that the time of it would be suitable.

[quote Frazzled2207]@mamangelo
i run a business like this and have had to make it clear that unfortunatley due to self isolation I can't refund. I can't really operate otherwise as i would be potentially refunding people all the time. I will offer an online option but can't be sure that the time of it would be suitable.[/quote]
My business is the same, just because child doesn’t come we still have to pay the coach & all over overheads

People don't seem to have any loyalty to the services they use.

This instructor doesn't seem to have any sense of how to be decent to her clients. A decent person would tell clients immediately that normal classes are obviously suspended and they will be offering x class instead; obviously it's not equivalent in length or level to the usual classes and so money for that will be refunded or can be used as credit later.

how do you know the person/people running the class were entitled to the grant

If they were self-employed and had been in business more than a year (or better put, had accounts up to 2018/2019) they were entitled to it. I wasn't because I had been working freelance only very recently. Fortunately though I had some employed hours this year as well as my freelance work so had enough to live on. But had I not been in that fortunate scenario I would not have received money for doing nothing and I would have not have expected it.

I actually thought a grant of £7500 was reasonably generous for three months - that's £2500 a month tax-free, and then people were able to claim more later.

People don't seem to have any loyalty to the services they use

So did you pay your hairdresser every 6 weeks during lockdown even though she couldn't cut your hair? If not why not? Why is that different to the nursery or the cleaner or the gymnastics instructor?

if children needed to self isolate due to the pandemic would she refund their missed class fee

This is different because the service is available. If a child can't attend, that's tough, parent loses money. If the teacher needs to self-isolate, then they can't expect to charge for a lesson they can't provide.

YABU. Non refundable means non refundable, regardless of circumstances. If you didn’t like that then you shouldn’t have paid for the classes.

The fact of the matter is that you did pay for the classes, and when they couldn’t be attended physically zoom classes were offered in replacement. So they have made reasonable adjustment; they shouldn’t lose out because your daughter whined they were “ridiculous”.

It was also very wrong of you to take it upon yourself and adjust the payment owed. That’s not up to you - the payment is what it is and if you don’t like it you don’t pay.

If I were the instructor I would only allow your daughter to attend the classes you’ve actually paid for eg. if you believed you paid for 8 classes but deducted for 4 last term, I would only allow her to attend 4 now until you paid the full amount.

If you weren’t happy with this I would then cancel your daughter’s attendance altogether.

I paid my hairdresser a 50% top. I overpaid at all my small local shops as well. Money is really tight but they still had to pay all their overheads.

@ameliajoan

YABU. Non refundable means non refundable, regardless of circumstances. If you didn’t like that then you shouldn’t have paid for the classes.

The fact of the matter is that you did pay for the classes, and when they couldn’t be attended physically zoom classes were offered in replacement. So they have made reasonable adjustment; they shouldn’t lose out because your daughter whined they were “ridiculous”.

It was also very wrong of you to take it upon yourself and adjust the payment owed. That’s not up to you - the payment is what it is and if you don’t like it you don’t pay.

If I were the instructor I would only allow your daughter to attend the classes you’ve actually paid for eg. if you believed you paid for 8 classes but deducted for 4 last term, I would only allow her to attend 4 now until you paid the full amount.

If you weren’t happy with this I would then cancel your daughter’s attendance altogether.

You're not paying attention to the facts.

To be 100% clear on this:

1. You have said: "Non-refundable does not mean non-refundable, regardless of circumstances": Actually. the law says the opposite:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds Even without the law specifically about Covid, it wouldn't make sense for events the teacher cancels to be non-refundable. In consumer law, if you don't get, you are entitled to a refund. But as you will see above - and as kindly provided to me by another user - it's just a fact that refunds are due, unless by agreement etc.

1. I didn't ask for a refund. Never have done. As you will see from the law above, consumers shouldn't even have to ask. Provider should be doing this. She didn't. All I would have liked was a credit for a future class. This was not offered.

1. You also state that the facts are that "Zoom classes were offered as a replacement". This is not true either. It was something else she emailed people about if they were interested to take part, as she worked out how to use the technology. She never suggested these would be replacements, and the substance of the Zoom meetings was not the same as the classes. They were not suitable in terms of date, time, practicality, but even if they were, they should have been offered perhaps as an alternative that MAY have been acceptable to parents who were willing to accept them as a substitute. Not introduced and after the event, some months later, telling people whether or not they were available, able or interested in attending, that 'sorry, didn't you know, those video classes that you were not able to attend, or didn't feel of value, well, they were your replacements. I agree, she perhaps she intended them to be considered this way, but she never said that, offered that, and if she had of done, she should have had the courtesy to offer, not insist.

1. My daughter didn't whine anything. And she didn't say they were ridiculous. She is just smart enough to know that running full speed at a pommel horse and doing vaults, or somersaults on a gym mat that is perhaps ten square meters, is not replicable at home, nor could she easily see the teacher. She was already overloaded with screentime from school and with friends - and decided not to take part. As it happened, she heard from other children that it wasn't of interest or use to them.

1. I don't agree it was wrong to adjust the payment. I have paid a sum of money and am now entitled to those lessons, paid for. When it became clear that the teacher was not going to credit the payments, I explained that I was paying one amount less the other amount and the basis of it. Upfront and honest. Not mean, not petty. Just like to know where we are, and what's what.

1. I don't want the teacher to cancel DD's attendance, But I do want her to learn to communicate better and be more honest about her intentions. What would happen now if I paid for a whole new term and lockdown comes back again. Will she again try and say sorry no refunds. She might - but again, she'll be breaking consumer law, and she'll also find that parents no longer want to risk hundreds of pounds a term months in advance, if she isn't even going to either offer a refund when she must - by law - or a credit - an acceptable alternative.

You know nothing - but thanks for taking an interest!

Another instructor here - absolutely no way can you palm off zoom classes are the alternative here. So many reasons - it costs her less to run, so why would you be paying full cost? Who is to say you had the space or the technology?

She’s a cheeky fucker for sure. I refunded all my participants for their in person classes before moving online. The cost is cheaper - it would be a brass neck to ask for the same fee but not have the same experience

@TPS2009 - thx for your view on this. I have been accused of being mean and petty and I was just interested in whether I was being unreasonable in my response. Had she said, "I'm in danger of going out of business, would you mind letting me keep the money, and I'll offer extra classes or credits next year, or in the holidays whe we ca meet again" then I would have thought that a reasonable way to behave. I don't actually think she was being cheeky, just inconsiderate of anyone else - and trying to slide these Zoom classes in, and only afterward telling people that they were the replacement, and not before, with a choice to accept!. As you point out, and as I have noted, an gym class is not the same online - it can't be compared to say, I don't know. online maths tuition.

Also, in terms of substitition, imagine if the physical premises she hires out said to her, we're still going to charge you in full for the gym hire, that you cannot use, but instead we are giving you the login to our Zoom account for you to use as an alternative. I imagine she'd be saying to them, er..."no thanks, your Zoom account is not suitable for my classes, so either give me a refund or credit me for next term!"

I agree with everything you've said and think you're right. But by being passive aggressive and petty, deducting the money without mentioning it undoes all of that and imo makes the rest irrelevant and you in the wrong.

@BlueBirdGreenFence - thank you. I don't disagree that I am being petty. This is only about £64 after all! But I like to pull people to attention when they try don't deal fair and square. I don't think she's taking the piss, just guilty of slightly sharp practice. However, I hope - with respect - you will allow me to just correct you on one thing? Or else, be advised again by you, so that I can learn and improve how I can behave more reasonably.
So, I don't think I was passive -aggressive in deducitng money without mentioning it. I did mention it! I put an explanation on the bank transfer. It's just that she then queried that. Queried it, because she said she did not understand it. I didn't simply send some money without saying why. Also, there isn't a set amount you need to send. It is down to every parent to send the right combination of money depending on how many days, and how many hours. So you could do one day, and one hour - or perhaps two days and one hour each day - or even two days and two hours each time. You mix and match. What I sent money for was thus for what I suggested would be for x days and y hours, but reduced by the few hours owed. But with a note to explain. The whole point was that if she had an issue with it, and wanted to raise it with me, it would ABSOLUTELY mean that we would finally have a discussion about it, after six months without one word about the money she had held on to, without offering a refund (the legal position, and not something I was askign for anyway) or even a credit agains future classes. Which is surely a reasonable thing she could have offered - and reasonable for me to accept.
Am genuinely surprised you think my rationale is right, but my attitude makes me wrong. But I can see that as the song goes 'it ain't (always) what you do, it's the way that you do it.' My final defence is, I treat people how they treat me. She could have kept the money if she said she had needed it. I just didn't like the way she put her own needs first and did not even communicate about it at all. Pretending months after the event that a) these other classes were your substitute whether you like it or not is not on b) nor is when challenged about it, thinking that offering a credit isn't allowable because 'classes are not refundable' even she cancels them. Again to repeat, she's had the money - and had it since Jan. All she has to say to me - and anyone else being as mean and petty as some think I am being - and be reasonable to us would be 'that's fine, please do attend for two weeks in September, to replace the classes I cancelled''

The OP is not struggling financially but other families who use this service might be. Losing this money might be comparable to someone else losing the cost of a flight. If you wouldn't allow the airline to keep your money after cancelling your flight, you shouldn't criticise the OP for not paying for a class she hasn't received.
The teacher keeping that money is stealing from you. She can't just keep the cash with no kind of discussion or agreement first.

Our girl's netball training and netball league was cancelled from March but the netball club refuses to issue a refund.
The club itself has since benefited from refunds/future discounts on hall hire, league membership and future match fees. Plus they did not pay for coaching or umpiring during the lockdown. There has also been Government and Sports England financial help available for grassroots clubs.
I have written at length to the club about the Consumer Rights Act and the CMA guidelines which clearly state that refunds should be given but they still refuse to pay our refund.
We feel powerless despite being in the right legally and morally.
Like you I think that some clubs are behaving in a way which tip toes around fraud and is certainly dishonorable.

Short of Small Claims Court I don't know what we parents can do.

I've changed my vote now to yabu as you said the zoom classes were offered.,.I'd originally yanbu.

My kids scouts waived the fees for the first lockdown but then in September started charging again as sessions were held on zoom my kids refused to attend zoom but I continued to pay as the group was trying give a session to the kids.

I'd say this was similar. The classes are on zoom your dd would benefit from the tutor a bit at least hut she doesnt want to participate. It may be best to leave the group if you dont want to pay in the meantime.