To not pay for gym classes cancelled by the instructor

[KindOfAwkward]

My DD goes to after-school gym classes (two hours on a weeknight and also two hours on the weekend) held at her school but run by an outside instructor.

We pay at the start of the term for the classes with the fees based directly on hours you attend i.e. one or two hours per session, and one or two sessions a week.

At the start of the pandemic, the instructor cancelled the remaining classes - about two weeks of the term were left up until Easter hols.

At the start of this term, we paid for the new term, and I deducted a sum equal to the cancelled classes, i.e. two weeks of two classes of two hours = 8 hours, and paid for the forthcoming hours in advance.

The teacher queried my bank payment and so I explained the maths, also explaining that since she has neither explained in the past six months whether she was planning on credit the cancelled fees, nor the opposite and said that she was not planning to do this, but in fact said nothing at all, that I had simply done the maths myself.

She has come back and said, that the letter she sends out stats that fees paid are non-refundable. I will almost certainly reply to say that IMHO the point about fees being non-refundable was surely about parents wanting refunds if, THEY choose not to attend if say, their child doesn't want to go, or they are away for a weekend, but it surely cannot cover the teacher cancelling the class. Otherwise, taken to its logical conclusion she could take bookings for a whole term and then immediately cancel the classes! Or cancel classes if she fancied a day off. And still be paid! This aside, this is probably not the issue to be querying, rather that even if fees are deemed and accepted by us as non-refundable, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be transferrable and credited to future classes. It would be entirely fair to simply credit the money, as she normally does if e.g. she cannot do a class because of another commitment or illness. So, to sum up, I can agree with her term about no refunds, but think she is not being fair about crediting the fees for the classes she cancelled herself. Principle is surely the same as, say, a clothes shop saying,:"We can't refund your money, but you can have a credit note." Am I being unreasonable to at the very least point out the logic of my position and see if the teacher can accept that.

I’ll give you the view from the other side. I work for a small business running sport coaching. We had to close & cancel 2 weeks worth of lessons (approx £16 per child)
My boss still paid the staff, still had to pay the rent, the insurance (which is huge) the phone bill, the internet bill, the fees for being member of the governing body etc etc
We told our clients we would not be able to refund & will hold some kind of event to make up for it when we are allowed. The other option was to refund all & go bankrupt. The vast majority of our customers were supportive of this as they value the service we provide.
My own Dd attends after school clubs & I wouldn't have asked for a refund from any of them.
It depends if you need the £20 or whatever more than you want the club to survive

Personally I would have not deducted them if I could afford not to. It has been very tough for many organisations but also for individuals. Once DH was made redundant we had to cancel the subscriptions we were paying for classes the kids weren't attending during lockdown.

But @nancy75 you day "We told our parents" - you communicated as a business, the op's club didn't so your post simply doesn't apply.

My DS1's activity went Zoom over lockdown. All fees were rolled over until the restart.

They didn't take a penny during all of this even though I and quite a few other parents offered.

I think the main problem is that she was not clear from the beginning. All of our extra curricular activities were clear on charges, online availability etc. She has not been clear with her customers.

Competition and Markets Authority is your friend.

I think it's rather petty and mean of you

I think it's a bit tight

OP no you are not unreasonable not to pay for services not received and the gym instructor is being a CF, particularly as she almost certainly received the SE grant (or furlough pay if employed) and so is trying to double recover.

Parents have paid termly in advance, and have been asked to waive their refund, or delay it until classes are back to normal, if they can

asking is fine and is permitted in line with the latest CMA guidance if it does not unduly prejudice the consumer's rights. Requiring is a clear breach of the law (and always has been. No service received = no payment).

And if you provide an alternative like via Zoom you can't require the person to accept that alternative. I kind of got stuck with this myself but it was in a business context so I was bit stuffed. But in a consumer context - nope. They are taking the proverbial.

I suspect most providers will now be writing new clauses into their contracts with new customers to say that they can move online if they have to. Such clauses may or may not be enforceable depending on the circumstances.

A number of the after school clubs that were available at DD’s school have ceased trading because of the pandemic. I think the Zoom was a reasonable equivalent under the circumstances and you should have discussed with the instructor before making a decision yourself. I wouldn’t be surprised if she says you either need to pay for those two classes or else refunds you and gives your child’s place to someone else.

I see your point however the fact that she offered zoom classes makes her reasonable.
I run an after school activity. I didn’t choose to stop sessions in March- I had no choice. It wasn’t that I didn’t feel like doing them anymore! My income has fallen off a cliff and I’ll probably get by until Christmas and probably then abandon the business unless things are looking very rosy.
She offered zoom replacements which perhaps she should have made clear were to replace the lost classes. I did the same -there were only two sessions owing which some did and some did not attend. Had a parent actually said to me that they really didn’t want the zoom I would have credited two classes this term and if they really didn’t like that that I would probably have offered a refund but nobody has asked for either option out of 200+ kids.
I do see your point of view but offering refunds is very difficult for us businesses (we have no cash right now) and credit is appropriate but she offered you zoom sessions instead.

My daughters swimming lessons were paid upfront for the summer term. None of these happened due to lockdown, so the funds went to pay for the Autumn term instead.

We weren't asked to pay for the lessons she didn't have.

She should have clearly communicated at the time though that the zoom sessions were replacements.

Yes, I am annoyed about the lack of communication in March and April about her intention. If she said, I need to keep the fees, but plan to offer Zoom classes to replace this, Let me know if you would like to take part, and if not, I will credit you with the lessons when we return", then this would have been a fair approach.

I am also offended now that here in September, when she queries why I have deducted £64 from this term's fees, and I say, "because of the classes you cancelled" that her response is to say, "ah, but the classes are non-refundable, as it says on the term sheet" (sent out in Dec 2019),

I do not feel this is a good enough or honest response. As above, if my child can't attend, I get it, we can't ask for a refund. But if the teacher cancels (and then at a later point offers some Zoom classes at different times, days, durations and so on which are not of interest or practical, and does not make it clear that these are intended to be replacements for classes paid for...then that's not on.

Those lessons should have been offered EITHER as refunds (as an earlier poster has noted, which sems to have been the legal position) or as I was happy to allow, - and seemed fair - as a credit.

At the point that someone says, sorry, non-refundable and btw you could have attended these Zooms sessions and actually got free training had you attended them all, I think that is being slippery about it.

Yeah that’s not ok ! Am a nursery manager myself - and we did reach out and ask if people could continue to pay during closure it would be really Helpful to Keep us a float - some people continued to pay!

Now that we are back open properly again - we are now paying those people back - it was always seen as a loan to help through a difficult time ! No way would it be right to keep the money!!

@Frazzled2207 - good points, but yes, as you note, she didn't offer them as a replacement, or make it clear that this was her intention to do so. For example, the training was, in any case, working toward displays and competitions in the Summer terms which were also cancelled. Her alternatives were not replacing that - how do you do work on pommel horse, or a huge floor mat, or a beam from your own home? And the sessions she did offer were for different times, days, durations. Not suitable or convenient. And as you say, if people didn't want them you say you would have offered credits. Would be fine, and this is the sensible conclusion I reached quite easily and didn't hassle for a refund.

I think YANBU. Even if it was possible/quite easy to work out that she was doing Zoom lessons as a replacement, the onus is on instructors to spell out that this is the case. And they presumably weren't suitable for quite a few people; I assume your DD isn't the only one at her level.

I think a good parallel is in employment, where you have to be offered an equivalent role –so, if you were a director, they can't take the job away and offer you an admin assistant job instead.

Haha at the self employed grant covering the loss of earnings, it was £7500 - that’s our turnover for 2 weeks of holiday camps. Most clubs had to cancel their Easter camps & at least 8 weeks of lessons.

I agree with you OP. No one would pay for a meal in a restaurant and not get fed. Or give a shop money, just because retail is struggling. You pay for a service and if that cannot be provided, you should receive clear communication offering you an alternative/refund/credit. If the alternative offered is not suitable for you and you didn't use it, of course you are entitled to your money back.

Haha at the self employed grant covering the loss of earnings, it was £7500 - that’s our turnover for 2 weeks of holiday camps. Most clubs had to cancel their Easter camps & at least 8 weeks of lessons

And, with that sort of turnover, you presumably employ people so were able to furlough them and save 80% of their salaries?

Anyway, the legal position is that you don't pay for services you don't receive. Morally it is up to the person concerned and their own specific circumstances. But the service provider doesn't get to dictate the moral imperative.

I agree with you. If the teacher cancels, them a refund or credit.

We’re the zoom lessons at the same time as the normal lessons, and the same length of time? If so, I guess the dance teacher had a point.

However, if they were at different times, then you wouldn’t automatically assume they were a replacement, but an alternative.

Yes @Standrewsschool...,
BEFORE: was 2 hours on Tues evenings and Sat afternoons for specific age groups and abilities and held in a spacious, well-equipped school.
AFTER: they were 30mins sessions on Zoom on weekday afternoons while OH and I were working. Didn't really need to create even more screen time for DD and she wasn't interested in the slightest in doing gym over Zoom.

And as I have said, these new sessions were not offered as replacements, just as something initially she said she would explore and then seemed to be offering to keep kids busy and active if they needed it. Never told this is your replacement in any way. So, no sense of needing to accept or reject it. Which is perhaps what she wanted.

As a firmer self employed instructor I'd refund your payment and give your dd place to someone much nicer than you. You should be embarassed.

@KindOfAwkward are you still hoping to send your dd back to lessons after all this fuss?

If you are, then I'd let it go.

When our gym had to close we were asked by the owner to stick by the gym, pay our usual fees if we could afford it and he'd look after us post-covid by giving us PT sessions for free and upgrading our membership for the number of months we paid.

I'd no issue with this. It's a small one man band and we attend most days. We had zoom sessions available three times a day mon-friday so we could attend whatever times suited us (all three if we wanted!)

Yours might be a different situation as it wasn't explained to you and it seems your zoom sessions were a bit arbitrary.