Any Sainsburys staff here?

[Shedbuilder]

Shameless abuse of AIBU, but looking for traffic.

If you work for Sainsburys, could you let me know what's happening to your changing and toilet facilities — for staff, not customers. Do you still have separate male and female loos and changing facilities or have they been merged to unisex in the name of diversity?

Any thoughts or info gratefully received.

It's a very valid question that directly impacts all women, because whether you like it or not, companies and businesses are breaking the law by sneaking theses changes in, it's happening under your nose and you don't realise until it's too late. People need to wake up to the erosion of women's rights before it's too late and you have nothing left.

Some really bizarre responses you are getting, OP.

Nothing transphobic in the fact that many women need single sex places for various reasons and that need is enshrined in law. Employers like to pretend they are diverse without actually spending any money or effort on it. Refusing to provide additional, fully enclosed gender neutral spaces is bad for those women who need single sex spaces, trans people under pressure to "pass" and disabled people whose already scant provision is invariably used more.

It's also fine, good even, if your activism and feminism extends to caring about people beyond your own particular circumstances. To understand that not everyone shares your privileges.

OP my previous place of work (not saying what beyond public body) changed the female toilets to mixed sex without telling users or changing signage. It was buried in policy which most people don't read. Despite there being a very high proportion of Muslim users. The toilets were in a horrendous state anyway and deeply unpleasant. The organisation just wanted to virtue signal without spending any cash as the site was due to be sold for redevelopment in the next few years.

That could literally happen anywhere though.

No it "literally" couldn't. And just because disabled toilets are vulnerable to this type of abuse, it doesn't mean that ALL toilets should be.

Where does it end?

With maintaining protected single-sex spaces, as now.

We can never remove ALL risk, but we can minimise it as much as we possibly can.

my previous place of work (not saying what beyond public body) changed the female toilets to mixed sex without telling users or changing signage

Always the female spaces which get redesigned. Never the male.

Funny, that . . .

Unisex loos are not new. My husband worked in a scientific facility and there was a unisex loo there 30 years ago and nobody even blinked about it and perhaps a third of the users were women. It was fully self contained with a handbasin and was very clean.

I asked about Sainsbury's because Sainsbury's is my preferred local supermarket. And because it concerns me when facilities are withdrawn or changed without the consent of the workers. There are a lot of women visible in my local store and I'm concerned for their privacy and dignity. I work in a male-dominated sector and often have to use loos used mainly by men and they are too often completely disgusting.

Maybe credit the workers at Sainsburys with enough gumption to raise the issue themselves. They are adults and I'm sure they are capable of talking to management if there is an issue. Give them a bit of respect, they aren't there to be patronised by you.

I’ve had a miscarriage at work. I’ve had to sit on the floor of the loo in pain. I’m grateful that this was in an exclusively female space and there were no men around. Bad enough for it to have happened but at least my chance of sitting in urine was lower ( I used to work for an investment bank - the women’s loos were filthy so I can only imagine the state of the men’s).
I also think it’s important to know what companies do for their staff, you never know when you might want to apply for a job there.

The shopworkers union is USDAW if anyone who actually works in a shop needs support.

@unmarkedbythat

What an odd request; if you are an employee, you would know this information already, if you are not, how is it relevant to you?

It's not an odd request. No one should be made to feel bad for preferring a male or female only space. Give over.

I've worked in two places with unisex toilets, both were very old listed buildings (one was Elizabethan) and there was no way to make two loos unless we lost the small kitchen and no one wanted that. It was always clean, I think this myth that all men are filthy is sexist.

And sometimes it’s harder to raise concerns when you are on the inside - it’s why whistleblowers get anonymity - there can be pockets of bullying and perhaps not everyone feels safe raising concerns when they depend on their job.

And sometimes it’s harder to raise concerns when you are on the inside - it’s why whistleblowers get anonymity - there can be pockets of bullying and perhaps not everyone feels safe raising concerns when they depend on their job. That is where a union is so useful, I would always advise people to join a union, you never know when it might be useful.

The problem might be that unions are not always as impartial as one would wish and they may also be reluctant to become involved in a dispute of this nature. Given the fact that they will, no doubt, be being told that trans rights to identify and to use facilities that match their gender identity trumps womens rights to safe spaces by outfits such as Stonewall.

@ancientgran

I've worked in two places with unisex toilets, both were very old listed buildings (one was Elizabethan) and there was no way to make two loos unless we lost the small kitchen and no one wanted that. It was always clean, I think this myth that all men are filthy is sexist.

This! We have one shared toilet at work and it’s spotless. No issue at all. Not many men are going to leave pee on the toilet seat in a shared company toilet.

How on earth is it transphobic to want to keep sex segregated spaces

Because not allowing anyone who identifies as female is rejecting their gender identification*. It's difficult to manage sex segregation when it comes to self-ID and non-binary people , because some people will identify as one gender but have the appearance of the other, or none, so it's easier to desegregate.

*That's my understanding of the trans position, anyway.

My employers moved into a building with unisex lavatories in 2007. They were already like that, so I have no idea how long ago they were made unisex. The building was built in the 1960s or early 70s, so I doubt if it was built with unisex toilets.

They're always clean, except for occasionally on the ground floor where they're sometimes used by clients. The only disadvantage is the each cubicle opens straight onto the corridor, so if someone has a smelly shit, everyone on that floor knows about it.

A request for air freshener was refused on environmental grounds, and because there's (allegedly) an extractor fan in the cubicles that don't have windows.

Scruffymac - you don’t have to read this thread, you do realise that don’t you?
It’s not a good look trying to silence women.

The problem might be that unions are not always as impartial as one would wish and they may also be reluctant to become involved in a dispute of this nature. Given the fact that they will, no doubt, be being told that trans rights to identify and to use facilities that match their gender identity trumps womens rights to safe spaces by outfits such as Stonewall. I was a senior HR manager before I retired, still do consultancy work, and that doesn't sound like any union I've worked with. I realise some people will think the union isn't impartial if it doesn't automatically agree with them.

On the point of the shop workers being able to appeal to a union, I don't know about their particular union but not all unions are great for women:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54003606

The GMB has been found to be institutionally sexist.

Runningfrominsanity, glad it wasn't just where I worked. Makes you wonder what some people live with at home when they automatically make these statements about men. My sons were taught how to use a toilet at a very early age and being outnumbered (3 sons 1 husband) I never had to deal with any of the issues that people refer to about men and toilets.

ancientgran I work in employment law and have met many a partial union. I'm not necessarily talking about siding with an employer, although there is a fair amount of that, but institutional sexism is rife as Shedbuilder points out.

Given that trans rights often align with mens rights I would not assume to be given the best support from a union.

cantdothisnow1 as I said some people jump to the conclusion that anyone who doesn't agree with them isn't impartial.

Shedbuilder a shopworker can join USDAW, a much more appropriate union for shopworkers than the GMB. I've had dealings with USDAW and never seen any sexism.

Well it does happen ! but that’s what a disabled toilet if for. Or just stick up an out of order sign

I'm not disabled, why would I use the disabled loo and prevent someone with a disability from using it?

I have also miscarried at work, like @Martinisarebetterdirty. It was bad enough as it was, but in a shared space? My colleagues are all lovely, male and female (and transgender and nonbinary) alike, but I needed women's help at that time.

There is no such thing as a 'disabled' toilet. There are however 'accessable' toilets for those who need more space and privacy than a regular stall.