AIBU to think that actually, voters don't care if politicians lie, cheat, are racist or even break the law, we'll vote for them anyway?

[KenDodd]

And politicians have realised this.
As proven in recent years.

This actually isn't a go at Tory voters, I think if the roles were reversed other voters might act exactly the same and also not care about any of the above as long as their side won. I remember reading about an election in the US a while ago were one of the two candidates had just been arrested for child sex abuse, he didn't lose any support despite this. Some of the electorate were interviewed and said better him that the other guy. I can't remember which party was which but I don't think it matters, I don't think it would have made much difference if it was the other way around.

We should demand better, it's our fault politicians lie, cheat, are racist and break the law, we let them.

Which is how Johnson had his majority

Yep. I don't think that most people vote for liars, cheats etc while knowing that's what they are. I think they just don't care enough to look any deeper than "my side vs the other side", or follow politics at all. There are lifelong party voters who probably couldn't even tell you what their policies are and don't care.

@YummyJamDoughnut

Which is how Johnson had his majority

Yep. I don't think that most people vote for liars, cheats etc while knowing that's what they are. I think they just don't care enough to look any deeper than "my side vs the other side", or follow politics at all. There are lifelong party voters who probably couldn't even tell you what their policies are and don't care.

Disagree. Most people I know didn't vote for Boris Johnson. They voted against Jeremy Corbyn. It's clear many people who I don't know did the same. People were interviewed on the national news saying as much.

The vilification of Corbyn knew no bounds. He was constantly lied about in the press and the TV. He was severely criticised for doing things others have done without question. And the public lapped it up. So instead of voting for a socialist who speaks up for the forgotten and less able members of society, we had vast swathes of the English working class, who felt ignored and trampled on for years, voting instead for the most right wing upper class millionaire government who would utterly despise those voters on any other day, getting the working class vote and dismissing Corbyn as a terrorist.

And now we will have a no deal brexit, and workers rights will be a thing of the past. If you are lucky enough to keep hold of your min wage job, don't expect any rights you have just now to be here next year.

It's fucking tragic.

He was the leader of the opposition of course he was under scrutiny for many what he has done, what he has ignored, who he choose to engage with is not someone they want leading the party that they support

What I and many other disliked about Corbyn wasn’t lies it’s all there with him discussing it over and over again trying to explain away what many see as very very poor judgements

The voters he lost in the last election was down to Brexit something we all know Corbyn supported. How strange politics is at times the issue that lost Labour seats that have been Labour for many many years is also the issues that their leader supported but sat on the fence about

As for socialist ideals we are not and never have been or been close to being a socialist country. You want to be in power you should understand your voters

@ItsAlwaysSunnyOnMN everything you just wrote is wrong.

We used to be very much more of a socialist country. We used to have worker's rights, wages that actually supported living in the country, social housing that was available to most who applied for it and everyone who needed it, unions protecting all of these rights. What do you think the NHS is but the product of a socialist-leaning country? The dole was available to all those who were unable to secure work, no sanctions and other punitive measures for those for whom jobs do not exist, although there were social shaming mechanisms - the working classes were proud of being able to work to support themselves. University education was free for those who could cope with high-level academia and there were grants to support living costs. Back in the very old days, students were paid to attend and could claim housing benefits, social housing and unemployment benefit to free them up for study that benefits society. Adult education was widespread through many mechanisms, and very cheap. There were numerous training schemes for youngsters in practical skills and areas. We had nationalised industries supply the basic infrastructure which we all, including private companies, require to carry out daily functions, at cheap cost to the citizen (citizens, not consumers). The cost of living was not just poured onto the poorest workers but spread and born throughout society, through distributed mechanisms delivering real economies of scale.

The OECD has published loads of material about how investing in your people who supply all the wealth through their labour is a necessity, why not read some.

Corbyn did understand his voters. He also understands how much the UK has degenerated over the last few years and how much more hardship is being suffered by the working population who support the non-workers through their labour. The accusations against him re anti-semitism, well, no smoke without fire (although there is a background cultural issue of anti-semitism and other hatreds rising in general), but he was and is someone who sought agreement through talking to people. Meanwhile there are many who believe only certain groups should be spoken to, and there are significant pro-Israel lobby groups. That's pro-Israel the political entity, not a conspiracy denouncing Jews wherever I see them. That is what the complexities of trying to bring peace to a region besmirched by deadly conflict for nearly a hundred years needs (let's hope the current hopeful peace there continues).

As for poor judgements, Brexit has been a poor judgements from the start. Johnson's lying habits have been well-established and well-documented.

Oh, and we had pensions. Of course. The one pot protected above all others, as those of us of working age face having to support an ageing population than ever before.

I notice on the thread suggesting a black Mumsnet section, people say non black people don't get to dismiss or invalidate black people's experiences of racism. Yet apparently it's ok to do that to Jewish people (who are sometimes also be black)? Yes there were a few exceptions, but the vast majority of Jews were very clear about their fear of a Corbyn win. I know my friend was. I don't understand the double standard.

Can you prove "the vast majority"? There were numerous Jewish people who said that Corbyn was not particularly at fault. But this is rehashing an old lie that I have no intention of wasting my time on any more.

It is truly depressing how history is being re-written right in front of us. Of course, one of the first victims of the modern consumerist society was history. It had to be. Followed by information, and real education and the time and leisure to think. The media, the universities, the libraries, the museums, the schools. All gone, or seriously corrupted.

There were a number of opinion polls. It was very clearly a majority.

@Pepperwort, I hope people read your posts and learn something.

I doubt it tbh. All anyone seems to be interested in now is creating in-groups and out-groups, and causing havoc for those who, in their eyes, support the out-groups. We are doomed.

*I should write to my MP and ask him quite simply -

"Will you vote for the country to break a international law and a treaty written and passed by this government (including yourself) less than ten months ago?"*

I thought about doing that, but she's only ever replied to one thing, and that was a standard letter that she wrote to everyone who wrote in about the same issue.

She's also a member of the ERG, so it doesn't take a genius to work out how she's going to vote, and she's thick as pig shit into the bargain, so abstract concepts like undermining the rule of law are probably a bit beyond her.

I agree. The only thing I can hope for here in Scotland is independence.

We used to be very much more of a socialist country. We used to have worker's rights, wages that actually supported living in the country, social housing that was available to most who applied for it and everyone who needed it, unions protecting all of these rights. What do you think the NHS is but the product of a socialist-leaning country?

And look at what the second post-war Labour government gave us: decriminalisation of homosexuality and abortion, the first anti-racist legislation, equal pay for women, the end of selective education - not just socialist policies, but socially liberal, too. All that while unemployment was almost always below a million, a level that seems almost unthinkable now.

If Harold Wilson or Clement Attlee were reincarnated as Labour MPs today, they would be considered very left-wing, far to the left of Corbyn, which goes to show how far rightward the political spectrum of the UK has shifted over the last 50 years or so.

Neither of them would ever win an election. I really don't get how we became such a very selfish nation, that doesn't care about the ill, the homeless, the jobless or the legacy we're leaving for future generations.

On Israel and Palestine, and the current accords in the region between Israel and UAE, I've just been introduced to a very interesting website from that region. It's easy to forget how much more complicated politics is in that region at the junction of three continents, with so many lands, peoples and powers involved, than it is on this island 'bordering' only Ireland and France at the edge of one continent.

www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/uaes-love-affair-israel
www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/israel-propaganda-war-silence-europe-how

Lakie sadly Corbin did not have the political skills of Atlee or Wilson. He has been a lifetime outsider and activist on minority issues, the sort of politician we need in our political system but he was never a leader. He was nominated by more mainstream politicians as a sort of provocation to encourage debate, which they later regretted (see Margaret Beckett.)

Oh dear can't believe I got his name wrong: Corbyn. And Attlee. I'm giving up and going to bed.

As for op I was thinking that everything goes in cycles so the next crop of politicians will be sincere or apparently sincere types.

But those weren't minority issues when Corbyn started his political career, @SallySeven, they were very much in the mainstream of the Labour party. So much so that a chunk of the Labour right fucked off to form the SDP. They were so much in the minority and on the very margins of the Labour movement that they were really a bit irrelevant.

Things like nuclear disarmament, anti-apartheid, women's rights, gay rights, civil rights in Ireland - they were all part of the same movement and we all rubbed along together.

And we all rubbed along together.........

The main thing this government has done is pitch the working class against each other. That was a stroke of genius. Conquer and divide at its most basic.

But it’s all communism you know... the time when Britain was at its most socialist was during the Cold War with communist USSR. We never had any trouble telling communism and other socialist models apart then.

*I know several lifelong Labour voters who reluctantly voted Tory in the last election (I'm a floating voter so less tribal). They couldn't vote Labour whilst a racist misogynist was leading it.

And so they voted for Boris Johnson?*

I know. 🤦‍♀️

I would love some examples of where the last Labour and even the Tory party before 1997 behaved in the way this current crop are behaving.

There have always been political scandals - affairs, expenses, cash for questions.....but compared to this govt even John Major's govt in the 90's that had a few sleaze problems; Tony Blair and his infighting and, god knows, even David Cameron all look like a better choice than the bunch of narcissistic, arrogant tossers we have now.

Who would think that in 2020 we could look back and think..."John Major....George W Bush....hmm, they weren't so bad after all"

@SecretSpAD

I would love some examples of where the last Labour and even the Tory party before 1997 behaved in the way this current crop are behaving.

There have always been political scandals - affairs, expenses, cash for questions.....but compared to this govt even John Major's govt in the 90's that had a few sleaze problems; Tony Blair and his infighting and, god knows, even David Cameron all look like a better choice than the bunch of narcissistic, arrogant tossers we have now.

Who would think that in 2020 we could look back and think..."John Major....George W Bush....hmm, they weren't so bad after all"

Indeed. I even found myself pining for the dreaded Thatcher the other day.

It's the abundance of fuckwits in the government these days. There has always been the odd oddball, but the cabinet just seems to be full of them. There's no one normal, or trustworthy. They all look shifty and under the cosh.

Not to mention Dominic Cummings. He’s made me think of Peter Mandelson a few times. He had the grace to seek election and be an MP.