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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

School acting unlawfully?

376 replies

emmapemma91 · 09/09/2020 15:58

My little girl started a new school Monday, she’s 6 and starting year 2. She has SEN and is waiting for assessment for possible autism.
Today she was only at school for an hour and I got a phone call saying to pick her up as they ‘can’t deal with her needs and she’s disrupting the class’.
Now she’s been put on reduced timetable, only doing mornings. Obviously I’m concerned about her mental health and how she’s coping but isn’t sending her home ‘unofficial exclusion’?. And should I call them out on this? They’ve said they’re going to need her picked up again tomorrow if she doesn’t settle. And it seems a bit extreme to put her on a reduced timetable after only 2 full days.

I will start the EHCP process soon but know the school need to use their resources to try settle her first, but it seems like they aren’t prepared.

OP posts:
TheId · 12/09/2020 18:38

I do wonder what effect Covid restrictions have on a schools ability to meet SEN pupils' needs?

I know it isn't an excuse for everything but the kind of actions you'd expect to be taken for the behaviour described would involve 1:1 attention and removing the child from the area to a less stimulating place wouldn't they?

With no EHCP and therefore no 1:1 in place for this child then a member of staff has to be found from outside the bubble surely? And a quiet space would also be outside the bubble area. I would expect these areas are usually shared between classes and now can't be. It really needed an advance plan.

OP did you expect this might happen? Did it happen in other schools she attended and did they have a plan that worked? I think I would have wanted a meeting eg with the SENCO before the start to plan what would happen.

I work in adult mental health and I admit I have no idea about children or autism but I do know about 'behaviour that challenges' and if you are hit out of the blue with very aggressive behaviour in a person you do not know you have no hope of calming them especially as a non specialist and trying to manage 29 others. My first action would be to call the person who knows them best and I would have a low threshold to send home and start again tomorrow. If it was 1hr solid screaming and too aggressive to get near then I'm not sure how you get back from that. You need to not get there in the first place surely and you only do that by knowing triggers, warning signs and strategies which with a new child they cannot.

What do PPs think the school should have done instead faced with the scenario with a child they don't know.

I also think if it was my child as distressed as that for an hour I would want to come and collect.

I do agree that it can't be an ongoing plan to just ring to collect but for the one off situation I don't see an alternative.

spanieleyes · 12/09/2020 18:53

The question of whether it is an agreed part time attendance or an illegal exclusion is easily resolved, what does it say on the paperwork that emmapemma91 received when she met with the Head on collecting her child? She will have received either an exclusion letter, setting out the right of appeal, or apart time attendance agreement, setting out the re-integration procedure, both of which would be legal, or she received nothing which makes it an illegal, exclusion.

windyautumn · 12/09/2020 19:29

Today she was only at school for an hour and I got a phone call saying to pick her up as they ‘can’t deal with her needs and she’s disrupting the class’.
Now she’s been put on reduced timetable, only doing mornings

@AnneofbigCleeveage OP also said she received no paperwork regarding a reduced timetable, had no work provided and was told to 'stay by the phnom' to collect if they 'couldn't handle her' - so I don't think you are correct with all your bold key words to make a point 🙄

Original poster
emmapemma91 · 12/09/2020 20:10

@spanieleyes I’ve had no paperwork. Not an email. Nothing.

OP posts:
windyautumn · 12/09/2020 20:26

@emmapemma91 have you had a proper minutes meeting to discuss a reduced timetable? Have they told you their plans for you to agree to? Are you just waiting for the paperwork or has nothing actually happened bad them saying she's on a reduced timetable and to 'wait by the phone'?

I'm appalled on your behalf.

windyautumn · 12/09/2020 20:29

What I mean is - you're supposed to have a proper meeting to discuss a reduced timetable and paperwork drawn up that has to be submitted to the LEA for their approval - have you had the meeting but not the paperwork yet?

AnneofbigCleeveage · 12/09/2020 20:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

murgatroid · 12/09/2020 20:43

AnneofbigCleeveage Your attitude is disgraceful and ableist. You should be ashamed of yourself.

AnneofbigCleeveage · 12/09/2020 20:46

@windyautumn There will be paperwork. All part time tables are scrutinised by OFSTED and documented. They are required to be produced on inspection. Op should contact sch and ask to see reduced T/T paperwork if she has not already seen it.

Op can ask to see again an re read. She will need to a call sch to arrange. The paperwork will be available.

uglyface · 12/09/2020 20:47

As a primary teacher I agree, it’s absolutely not right and you can challenge this and win.

However, just be aware that there might need to be an agreement reached re a reduced timetable until she settles/funding can be obtained to support her. In most schools, additional adults are only available when funded by the LEA to be 1:1 with SEND children. The teacher probably had to call on the headteacher/office staff for support so he/she could manage the rest of the class. If your DD doesn’t settle, they will likely either need to redeploy someone to support her, or employ a 1:1 out of their own budget. That might take some time to organise.

I hope you get the support you need.

murgatroid · 12/09/2020 20:49

You don't know that for sure though do you AnneofbigCleeveag

And the paperwork from the initial exclusion when she was sent home after 1 hour should have been given to the OP immediately.

Stop defending the shitty ILLEGAL behaviour of this school.

SugarPlumFairyCakes · 12/09/2020 20:57

Anneofbigcleveage - Shame on you. You're the entitled one. Contempt drips from your ill informed words.
My heart goes out to the parents of children with SEND - you shouldn't have to fight so hard to ensure your child gets a few crumbs from the table.

I admire so much what you go through each day to support your children and make sure they at least a little bit of equity within soicety.

Thisismytimetoshine · 12/09/2020 20:58

@murgatroid

AnneofbigCleeveage Your attitude is disgraceful and ableist. You should be ashamed of yourself.
You clearly haven't understood a word she's written.
windyautumn · 12/09/2020 20:59

Please don't engage with @AnneofbigCleeveage and her ableist, gaslighting views. Just report and get them removed.

BKCRMP · 12/09/2020 21:00

@anneofbigcleeveage no you clearly have not thought about it.

Imagine being 5 years old and being up until 2am in the morning with sky high anxiety because school routines are so unpredictable with all the extras they are meant to throw in for NT children. When mufti-days and nativities and off-timetable days send your anxiety through the roof for weeks on end.

Imagine having severe sensory difficulties where a school polo top makes you itch and scream thinking you have ants crawl all over you. The sound of chatter sending your anxiety sky high. The visually beautiful but chaotic classrooms. The fire bells to mark the ends of classes. The crowds going in to schools.

Being expected to do work double your developmental age. Not having any friends because you have the social skills of a 2 year old. Having the communication of a 2 year old. Having a speech disorder so you can't be understood by the other kids. Having auditory processing disorder.

Everything my 5 year old deals with day in day out is unbelievable, I personally think she is a bloody superhero. She lashed out once this week and bolted once this week. We are all still working hard together to really get to grips with it all. Fixes aren't instant.

We all know she needs specialist school. The irony of it all is that it is children like my DD with significantly complex needs (but NO learning disability) who have no special school to go to. She can't go to an ASD specific school because she's too complex. She can't go to a S&L school because she's too complex. She can't go to a SEMH school because we haven't got one within 90 minutes for her age group. Our more general specialist schools won't take her because she doesn't have a learning disability or because she is too complex. No private fee paying school would consider her because they have the luxury to say no to SEND kids.

I would LOVE for her to be in a suitable school but we haven't got one. So no, I will make absolute sure that she is in a highly inclusive mainstream school. I will make sure she has access to a full time education. I will make sure she has peers rather than being sat in a hallway all the time. If that means once or twice a week her class witness her getting upset for approx 5 minutes before either she or they are removed then that's really not something I'm concerned about. The squeal she makes when the bell goes off, the flapping/stimming, the ear defenders and sensory items she has access to... may all be distracting momentarily but that's where children should be taught to understand each other's differences. She is sat to the side of the room to limit distraction but she has absolutely every right to be there and to have her needs met.

Thisismytimetoshine · 12/09/2020 21:00

Since when are we not allowed our own opinions?! Report my arse.

uglyface · 12/09/2020 21:03

@AnneofbigCleeveage I’m so sorry that this has happened to you, just as I’m so sorry that this has happened to OPs child. All children deserve equal access to education, SEN or not.

Blame the years and years of funding cuts, though I suspect from anecdotal evidence that the number of children with ASD/ADHD/mental health/behavioural issue has increased a fair bit too.

Our school has a reputation locally for being inclusive and supportive to children with additional needs. Mostly this works out well, but we have had some situations where we have lost a few children from certain classes due to disruption. In one class we lost six children in a year to a local prep because we kept having to evacuate the classroom when one child with anger issues would start throwing chairs. This is the only strategy that was suggested by our LEA behavioural support team, and we were only entitled to one visit from them and no staff training at all. His parents had to pay for a private mental health assessment as the CAMHs waiting list was 18 months minimum. Very very sad situation for all involved.

windyautumn · 12/09/2020 21:03

@Thisismytimetoshine

Since when are we not allowed our own opinions?! Report my arse.
Bet you say the same about racist comments as well then.
BKCRMP · 12/09/2020 21:03

And if you have ever had a child like my DD and been sat in a multiagency meeting where every single professional has all said that she has no suitable school available so you have to make where she's struggling at somehow work, then you might understand why SEND parents fight so hard.

windyautumn · 12/09/2020 21:05

MN has removed her disgusting post thankfully.

Thisismytimetoshine · 12/09/2020 21:06

Bet you say the same about racist comments as well then.
Hmm

MillieEpple · 12/09/2020 21:08

The idea people are suggesting charties so the OP can sue is hilarious. The idea is they help her secure an ehcp by explaining what the law is. This might give her access to a SEN school if thats whats needed or mean that the child is no longer disruptive as she has the right support in place at her local school. Perhaps if some of the parents at your village school had help from IPSEA, their children would be better supported and not disruptive or have moved on and your child would still be there and you woukd have saved your money.
Literally all you have done is illustrate a school that is doing a crap job in its SEND department and needs parents to make more fuss.

Iamnotthe1 · 12/09/2020 21:10

@BKCRMP
We all know she needs specialist school. The irony of it all is that it is children like my DD with significantly complex needs (but NO learning disability) who have no special school to go to. She can't go to an ASD specific school because she's too complex. She can't go to a S&L school because she's too complex. She can't go to a SEMH school because we haven't got one within 90 minutes for her age group. Our more general specialist schools won't take her because she doesn't have a learning disability or because she is too complex. No private fee paying school would consider her because they have the luxury to say no to SEND kids.

And this is the major issue really. The Government has consistently underfunded and stripped back provision for SEND pupils. We are now in a position where some children are forced the remain inside of a system that cannot support them and actually exasperates many of their specific barriers.

EHCPs are becoming more and more difficult to secure, especially in certain authorities, as there's no money to support them. Even when they are granted, we're now finding that authorities are being so specific and creative with the wording that the plan and any attached funding doesn't actually do the job it needs to. The Government is really letting down SEND students and their families.

Sockwomble · 12/09/2020 21:12

Well that posters real views of disabled children were well and truly outed.

BKCRMP · 12/09/2020 21:15

@iamnotthe1 yep we have had that battle. My daughter's plan is undeliverable without a dedicated 1-1. Her school is providing that 1-1 but they still can't get the full funding for it because her plan doesn't say it despite being literally impossible to do without.

Our LA have got school to do a full detailed provision map of exactly what they need to meet need according to her (clearly specialist school) plan and then refused to fund it. Her school for years 1-6 usually have a HLTA and a TA supporting each year group. My DDs plan has meant that their year 3s only have a HLTA until they get funding.

Its farcical.