What can you do about parents who won't vaccinate

[mirandatempest]

I've discovered that three of my friends have not vaccinated their children. I am normally very live and let live but this has really upset and bothered me. I've challenged them all but very gently as I
am useless at confrontation but can these friendships survive? I feel so angry.

How many children have caught a disease from an unvaccinated child?

I caught rubella from somewhere as an 11/12 year old. Yes I was also unvaccinated but at least my mum had the "excuse" that medical professionals told her not to vaccinate me. No idea if I gave it anyone but I was at school whilst contiguous because I wasn't ill/barely had any spots so it was only diagnosed by accident. Interestingly enough, my mum made an exception with TB as her dad died of it (aged 26 with 3 children between 4 and 3 months).

And it is not just other children who will be infected by an unvaccinated child who is infectious with a disease such as measles. It is also those who are immunocompromised; for instance those who are having chemotherapy for cancer

And those who weren't vaccinated because the vaccine hadn't been developed when they were young.

I got chicken pox when I was 37. I was really bloody ill, and off work for a month. I later suffered repeated attacks of shingles and subsequent post-herpetic neuralgia.

I've no idea why I didn't get chicken pox when I was young, I got almost every other bloody thing (measles, scarlet fever, german measles, mumps) but getting that sort of stuff as an adult is no laughing matter.

Those born before 1957 are presumed to have had the illnesses from MMR and are presumed to not need it.

Also, apparently vaccination is anti-Islamic and nowhere mentioned favourably in the Quran

I doubt it is mentioned at all. So not “not favourably” just not mentioned.

Not from MMR...that Mmr prevents. Sorry shouldn’t type whilst distracted!

Having chicken pox before you are eighteen months old can also leave you liable to get shingles in later life if you encounter someone with chickenpox, and shingles is a truly nasty condition. You have my sympathy; someone I know had it badly and suffered a lot.

I too didn't have chickenpox as a child, but I didn't get it when my children had it so I might be naturally immune, I suppose. Hope I never get shingles!

SisterAgatha
"Also, apparently vaccination is anti-Islamic and nowhere mentioned favourably in the Quran"
I doubt it is mentioned at all. So not “not favourably” just not mentioned.

Just so. But not sanctioned by being mentioned means it is unsanctioned, doesn't it -- it is not mentioned favourably. No, I don't see that as logical either, but that seems to be how it goes.

@TheEponymousGrub...well I can only speak as I find, the people I know who had it during that outbreak (which was apparently terrible, but I only saw at most 15 cases despite living in the epicentre of it) had all been vaccinated. Most of them were adults in their 40s and some primary aged children. The MMR uptake was somewhere between 85-88% iirc in the area. My children all had friends who had it, but they didn’t. I don’t know why that is, Im not suggesting it’s BECAUSE they aren’t vaccinated though, im simply saying that MMR only has a 97% efficacy at best, which means that there will be many many people who think they are safe who are not.
Also those over I think 55/6 at the time were presumed to be safe as they are presumed to have had the illnesses, this clearly isn’t foolproof as a method either. Perhaps those who were vaccinated took less precautions because they assumed they would be ok? I don’t know. But the fact remains that no vaccine is perfect.

*Also, apparently vaccination is anti-Islamic and nowhere mentioned favourably in the Quran
*
I doubt it is mentioned at all. So not “not favourably” just not mentioned.

It isn't mentioned in the Bible, either, so the Christian anti vaxxers have no biblical justification for the stance they're taking either.

Hardly surprising, seeing as vaccines have only been a thing in the last hundred years.

You do nothing, it's there choice.
We had ours immunised, but I support choice, tbh.

sssshhhhhhhh.

Never try to argue reason like that with a religious nutter.

I think if there are future large outbreaks due to unvaccinated but otherwise healthy children the Government will just have to make it compulsory to enter state preschools, state schools etc. I think that is the case in the US. With an ageing population and huge health care costs already, we just cannot afford to have outbreaks of previously quasi eliminated childhood diseases. Interestingly, my DD who goes to an independent secondary school that also has boarders had to fill in a long list of vaccinations she has had and we were told informally then any unvaccinated children/not up to date had been told they have to have their key vaccines.

I was in a very 'green' parenting groups when my oldest was a baby, pretty much the only support I had beyond my spouse, like the one a pp put in a link. There was a lot of distrust of the medical profession and sources due to previous negative experiences with medical professionals and the circling up that happens when someone tries to make a complaint when a HCP does something wrong. Many faced an attitude that if something went wrong, well that's your fault and even if one can prove wrongdoing, even an illegal act, there are times when the HCP is just moved along and we're expected to get over it -- is it any wonder that some may fear trusting that system during such a vulnerable times as when an infant is hours to weeks old?

In my experience, if it comes up (as a pp said, I have absolutely no idea of the vaccination status of anyone outside my kids), empathize with the fears, discuss risk reduction, and bust myths in kind way. It's possible that they're taking additional measures to reduce the risks to themselves and other, some scientifically backed, some a bit more woo. Empathy, discussing risk reduction, gentle science, and a secure place to belong outside of anti-vax groups. Yeah. maybe some aren't that bright just like some who vax everything on schedule with no questions aren't, but some have been through a lot of pain and fear & those groups are the only place where people believe their pain and fear & gives them community.

In the US I believe that children are not allowed to attend state schools unless they’ve had all their jabs.

As pp said, this varies by state and by district. It is more common for the records to be asked by the schools and it is far more common for colleges and universities to require evidence of vaccinations after offering a place. I ended up getting boosters at 17 after getting my acceptance letter because my records were with the wrong parent who had probably destroyed them before then.

Oddly enough, I recently had a smear and beforehand I had to repeatedly reassure the nurse that I had had the MMR. She was unhappy that my records showed no evidence of it. I had to explain it had happened before I immigrated, none of my previous medical records came over, but I remember having MMR at 11 and 17 and had shown immunity to rubella. I was told on leaving that if I found out I hadn't been vaccinated I could call for one

What vaccines do you mean OP?

I think once you have told them your view there’s nothing you can do as it’s their child.

People who judge should watch a toddler having a seazure for 20 mins (or more.) due to raised temp due to a vaccine.

People who judge should watch a toddler having a seazure for 20 mins (or more.) due to raised temp due to a vaccine

Two of my DC have suffered febrile seizures, one has grown out of them now and the other hasn't (yet). I'd still rather a febrile seizure, scary as they are, than measle-related encephalitis.

@FlySheMust

In some countries children aren't allowed into school if they are unvaccinated because of parental stupidity rather than a sound medical reason verified by a doctor.

Same should happen here. Selfish aresholes.

We have that approach in the US but the rules are set at the state level, with some states allowing easy exemptions.

That has changed in recent years as the result of some really awful measles outbreaks. California's law is probably the strictest:

www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/hn/cefimmunization.asp

and New York's law got significantly tougher last year, eliminating religious exemptions. Other states are following suit, thank goodness. And it's made schools safer for students and staff.

@june2007

People who judge should watch a toddler having a seazure for 20 mins (or more.) due to raised temp due to a vaccine.

And people who don't vaccinate should watch a toddler with pertussis.

Febrile seizures are transient and are also brought on by vaccine-preventable illnesses, like the flu.

Febrile Seizures Following Childhood Vaccinations

You can accept it, or not (and lose friendship).

Well if you feel that angry stay away

I have no idea what children have and haven’t been vaccinated that ds
has mixed with Apart from one friend who’s son couldn’t (can’t remember why and what vaccination it was)

Actually some forms of inoculation have been around for millennia - the Qu'ran may well warn against some of the cruder, more dangerous forms.

Chicken pox parties are a form of rudimentary inoculation - the idea being that children get the illness when they are young and in a relatively low risk group, so that they don't get it when they are older and it would be more severe.

In any case such a warning is not really relevant today.

Encephalitis is generally one of the (very rare) reactions listed on vaccine info sheets. I know it was one that scared the shit out of me when DS1 was tiny. I'd never had any idea vaccines could have such side effects. I did know that it was a side effect of (e.g.) Measles, too, but my thinking was that he'd have to come into contact with an infected person (probably not that likely), then contract measles (doesn't happen to every contact), then have a particularly severe case (not very likely) - it seemed like a remote risk and yet having the vaccine was a definite risk, no matter how low. Also the antivax sources I was reading seemed to suggest that the vaccine reactions were many times more likely than they actually are.

I also didn't really know very much about disease transmission when I was having that panic moment - my experience was limited to things like colds and chicken pox and so on - so I thought even if you had contact with a sick person, it wasn't that likely you'd catch something, just moderately. Thanks to covid I think a lot more info has been made accessible about disease transmission rates - sounds silly, but I didn't really know that they varied, I just thought something was either infectious or it was not. Anyway Measles in particular is one of the most infectious diseases in the world, you need a very high rate of immunity to keep it at bay. So it's a no brainer really to have a measles vaccine, because without vaccines most people would definitely get it, and when you compare the numeric risks of the vaccine with the risks of the disease, the vaccine wins substantially.

When DS1 was tiny when I finally decided I would get him vaccinated, I was fully under the impression that I was making a choice which was just about as risky as the alternative, and actually my main motivator towards going with vaccination was that it was the norm, so it was what doctors and other medical professionals were used to and experienced in dealing with.

june2007

My ds ended up having to stay overnight in hospital after all his combined jabs (but not his bcg)

I refused to allow him to have one jab along with his MMR (the age had just been changed the previous month) I waited a few weeks and yes he did end up in hospital both times I still feel I made the right decision

I think when you have experienced witnessing your child having febrile seizures and tests being done on your child as medics are concerned of course you ask the question is this right for my child

My questioning was the MMR right for my child given his experience or would single jabs haven been better for some children (if regulated thoroughly enough unfortunately they were not at the time) was totally dismissed on here. Funny enough has never been dismissed by any medical professionals I know

Thankfully he grew out of having febrile seizures and his second MMR was fine

But no parents questioning or fears should be dismissed as you being foolish/stupid as they are so often on here

I could never be friends with an anti vaxxer

put them in the same category as flat earthers

@gingganggooleywotsit

I could never be friends with an anti vaxxer

If you made a new friend how would you know if they are an anti vaxxer or not ?

It’s not exactly something that people bring up in everyday conversation.